All Time NBA Draft [Archive] - Page 2

comahan

02-14-2016, 03:25 AM

SF Larry Bird 1984-86
26.2 PTS, 10.1 REB, 6.7 AST, 1.8 STL, 5.7 FTA, .573 TS, .232 WS48, 8.5 BPM, 24.5 VORP
One of the greatest shooters ever, one of the greatest passers ever, etc. You know his skillset, you know how incredible he was as a player. If anyone thinks that Jordan and Kobe are the only ultra-competitive megastars, go back and watch more Bird or read more stories about him. Dude was a killer, while having unmatched work ethic, and always, ALWAYS rose to the occasion, second only to Jordan when it comes to putting a team on his back and taking over. But there was much more to him than that. Unlike Jordan, he was a team first guy who always got his teammates involved. His passing was contagious - his Celtics teams played how hoops should be played. When he was at his peak, before Jordan came along, he was almost unanimously regarded as the greatest player to ever play basketball - over Russell, over Wilt, over Kareem, over Magic. One of the greatest players to ever step onto a court, who led one of the greatest basketball dynasties ever, and did so while other teams high fived one another on the bench as he dropped 60 on them. At his apex, from 1984 to 1986 Larry Legend was absolutely untouchable.

PF Charles Barkley 1988-90
26.4 PTS, 12.0 REB, 3.7 AST, 1.6 STL 10.5 FTA, .660 TS, .257 WS48, 8.3 BPM, 27.1 VORP
Charles Barkley in his athletic prime. A frightening blend of power and finesse. I don't need him to be the grizzled leader he was for Phoenix in 93, not with Bird and Frazier leading the way. What I need is an unmatched specimen who could out-rebound damn near anyone and then thunder all the way down the court to the other end. Along with LeBron and Magic, Barkley is one of the three most unstoppable transition players in history, while also being a complete beast on the block. Before he started chucking up bad threes late in his career, Barkley was an efficiency god, shooting 59% from the field in these three years with a .660 True Shooting Percentage. That's barely below 2016 Curry as far as efficiency goes, and Barkley didn't have the benefit of being the GOAT 3P shooter. He just never missed. But if someone else missed? Didn't matter, because Chuck is probably the 2nd greatest offensive rebounder ever behind Moses. Combine his physical prowess, elite rebounding, and unique blend of skills with the abilities of Bird & Frazier and my team can play any style you want, any tempo you want. You have a team of lumbering bigs? We'll run on you. You're small? All of my stars have excellent post up games. 1988 to 1990 was the best stretch in league history in terms of talent, and Barkley was the third best player in the league behind only Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson.

PG Walt Frazier 1970-72
21.9 PTS, 6.5 REB, 6.9 AST, 7.1 FTA, .569 TS, .225 WS48
Imagine peak Tony Parker. Pick and roll maestro with a great midrange game and the ability to get to the rim and finish over or around anyone. Now make him 3 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier while maintaining his quickness but giving him more strength. That's Walt Frazier on offense. Now imagine that Parker could actually play defense - not just good defense, but all time elite defense. Walt Frazier is a top 10 perimeter defender in league history. He's not super aggressive like a Kawhi Leonard or a Gary Payton, but instead he was incredibly smart, had perfect positioning, and never let his man past him. Think of someone like Tony Allen or jimmy Butler. Now put all of this ability in someone who has the mindset of a modern day Spur, someone who is team first all the way and only cares about winning. The Red Holzman Knicks were one of the great team-based squads of all time. Frazier was their star, but he was like Duncan in that he was a selfless star. He played team ball perfectly, but took over the game when he had to, such as Game 7 of the 1970 Finals whre he scored 36 points, grabbed 7 rebounds, and tallied 19 assists to lead NYK to a title against Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West. Perfect complimentary superstar to Bird and Barkley.

C Dwight Howard 2009-11
20.5 PTS, 13.7 REB, 1.5 AST, 2.7 BLK, 10.8 FTA, .615 TS, .231 WS48, 4.9 BPM, 15.0 VORP
Only a handful of players in history have led a team to the finals with no Hall of Fame level teammates, and Dwight is one of those players. His level of dominance at his apex can't be overstated - Orlando was a top five defensive team in the NBA with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jameer Nelson playing big minutes. Dwight won DPOY all three years during this stretch, dominating the paint in a way few had before him. An elite rebounder and elite shotblocker, he was also incredibly efficient on offense. The combination of Howard and Barkley not only compliment one another well in terms of their games, but together they will destroy everyone else on the boards, particularly the offensive glass, while rarely missing a shot. The beauty of Howard's game is that he doesnt need touches on the block or a lot of FGA to score 20 and completely control the game. He does that himself by cleaning up the offensive glass and getting himself into position for easy lobs, which Bird, Barkley, Frazier, and Harden all have the vision and ability to deliver. He'll control the paint, control the glass, and clean up around the rim like few others can.

SG James Harden 2013-15
26.3 PTS, 5.1 REB, 6.3 AST, 1.8 STL, 9.8 FTA, .607 TS, .231 WS48, 6.6 BPM, 18.9 VORP
My 6th man. No one in this draft has a bench presence who can score and make plays the way that James Harden can. One of the most gifted offensive players in recent memory, he can shoot the three, juke you out of your shoes and step back for an easy midrange jumper, post on the block and face you up, or use his unparalleled first step quickness to blow past defenders and get to the rim. Only LeBron can rival his drive+dish ability in this era, and anyone who stands ready in the corner for a three will find thsmelves with a wide open shot on a consistent basis as a result. The sole creator and scorer on two 56 win Rockets teams during this stretch, the latter of which made the WCF with Harden starring in the playoffs to the tune of a .620 TS%, 7.5 BPM, and .202 WS48 as he dropped 27/6/8/2 on the Mavs, Clippers, and Warriors. His weakness is obviously his defense, but I have three all time great defenders in Frazier, Moncrief, and Jones able to cover any guard or wing. An underrated plus to having Harden - the ability to tilt the fuck out of the opposing team as he gets them all in foul trouble and picks up 10 free points per night because people can't help themselves as Harden lays down a clinic on reaching and teaching. The Beard isn't perfect, but he'll shine in this role.

SG Sidney Moncrief 1982-84
21.1 PTS, 6.4 REB, 4.4 AST, 1.5 STL, 7.7 FTA, .598 TS, .215 WS48, 5.3 BPM, 16.2 VORP
Walt Frazier is a top 10 perimeter defender in league history, Moncrief is top 5. The best perimeter defender of the 80s, he's a two time defensive player of the year, the only guard to ever win the award multiple times. But he was special on both ends of the court, not just on D. He was a very good scorer (an elite .598 TS% during this stretch on 21.1 pts), good distributor (4.4 ast), good rebounder (6.4 reb), good ball handler, etc. He was a do-it-all star whose all around game and defensive genius was overshadowed by more popular players like Bird and Magic. The 80s Bucks are overlooked, but they were probably the 4th best team in the league for most of the decade. They won 50+ games every year in this run. In 1983 Moncrief led the Bucks to a sweep over the Bird/Parish/McHale Celtics, with the Bucks being the only team in the playoffs that year to even take a game off of the Moses/Erving Sixers. In 1984 they went to the Eastern Conference Finals on the back of Moncrief before falling to eventual champions Boston. Moncrief and Frazier is a super-elite perimeter defender duo, and his presence allows for there to always be an all-time defender on the court next to Harden when the beard comes in off the bench. Similar to Jordan, Pippen, Drexler, and Payton, he does everything very well. He's GP without the bad attitude and the coach & teammate alienation, while retaining his intensity and aggressiveness. Injuries crippling him before he turned 30 is the only reason you dont hear about Sidney being a top 40 player in history, cause at his peak he was incredible. Another team-first star that will fit seamlessly as a top tier role player.

F Bobby Jones, 1977-79
13.9 PTS, 7.8 REB, 3.0 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.6 BLK, 3.7 FTA, .602 TS, .185 WS48, 5.6 BPM, 13.7 VORP
An efficient Dennis Rodman. Not the Rodman that was grabbing 18 rebounds a night, but the Rodman who came off the bench for the bad boy pistons and helped propel them to two titles by playing great defense and doing all the dirty work. Bobby Jones, who has one of the best nicknames ever in White Lightning, was an incredible defender and transition player. Insanely athletic, he could finish on the break with the best of them, usually with an awe inspiring dunk. In 77, when he came over from the ABA, he was the glue guy for a 50 win team, showing an all round excellent game as he put up 15.1 pts, 8.3 reb, 3.2 ast, 2.3 stl, and 2.0 blk while finishing 2nd in the entire league in BPM, VORP, and Win Shares per 48. In 1979 he joined the Sixers where he, Julius Erving, and Mo Cheeks started a dynasty which culminated in 83 with a title after two other finals appearances. An integral piece to great teams almost every year, he's the type of elite role player you need around players like Bird, Barkley, and Harden. Great efficiency, defense, versatility, and willingness to sacrifice glory for the team. One of the biggest impact role players ever.

C Arvydas Sabonis, 1996-98
14.7 PTS, 8.7 REB, 2.3 AST, 1.1 BLK, 4.6 FTA, .596 TS, .211 WS48, 4.8 BPM, 10.0 VORP
One of the greatest talents the center position has ever seen, but hampered by severe leg injuries before he came over to the NBA from Europe. Still, he was very effective once he finally came to Portland in 96. He had everything in his game - strength and skill in the post, a great face up game, a beautiful touch from range (34% on two 3PA/gm), efficiency, rebounding ability, good defense, and tremendous passing. He was the best big man passer of his day and one of the best passing seven footers ever. Most of all, he used his immense talents to better his team in the same way that Bill Walton did for the Blazers twenty years before him. Had the talent around him not been as combustible, perhaps there'd be another banner or two in Portland. I will be using him the same way that the '86 Celtics used Walton - as a reserve big man to come in and use his great all around skillset to link with guys like Bird and Barkley, who he compliments very well. Another selfless star with immense talent who meshes well.

theYAY

02-14-2016, 03:54 AM

i always wished Sabonis came over a lot earlier. One of my favorites from the 90s

WMD

02-14-2016, 04:12 AM

PG - Magic Johnson
SG - Ray Allen / Alvin Robertson
SF - Ron Artest / Alex English
PF - Dirk Nowitzki
C - Ben Wallace / Marcus Camby

All done!

TACKS

02-14-2016, 04:17 AM

will do a more extensive writeup later. very pleased with how my squad turned out.

PG: Steph Curry
SG: Penny Hardaway | Manu Ginobili
SF: Grant Hill | Bernard King
PF: Rasheed Wallace | Dave Cowens
C: Bill Russell

theYAY

02-14-2016, 04:25 AM

PG - Chris Paul - Mo Cheeks
SG - Allen Iverson - Rip Hamilton
SF - Tracy McGrady - Draymond Green
PF - Shawn Kemp
C - Hakeem Olajuwon

Brodie

02-14-2016, 04:39 AM

PG: Jerry West (1964-1966) / Fat Lever (1987-1989)
SG: Dwyane Wade (2009-2011) / Dan Majerle (1992-1994)
SF: Kawhi Leonard (2014-2016) / Andrei Kirilenko (2004-2006)
PF: Chris Bosh (2012-2014) / Andrei Kirilenko (2004-2006)
C: Shaquille O'Neal (2000-2002) / Chris Bosh (2012-2014)

I probably won't finish highly in other people's rankings because I took a lot of specialist guys who had short peaks (Fat Lever, AK-47, Thunder Dan), but whatevs. I have a lot of ball movement and good defense, with none of my guys being bad at anything really (sans Shaq at free throws).

Also, I'll let everyone post rosters and then I'll explain how we'll tackle the end of shit.

DallasM

02-14-2016, 07:54 AM

PG: John Stockton ('88 season through '90 season) / Tony Parker (05-07)
SG: Joe Johnson (07-09) / Tony Parker / Paul George
SF: Paul Pierce (01-03) / Paul George (12-14)
PF: Karl Malone (97-99) / Anthony Davis (14-16)
C: Artis Gilmore (77-79) / Anthony Davis

Davis can allow my team to go really big by going Gilmore/Davis/Malone/Pierce/Stockton, or I could go really athletic with a Davis/Malone/George/Johnson/Stockton lineup.

Love the versatility of my bench, we probably won't miss a beat no matter who's in.

Problem is that in terms of offensive capabilities, Going from Stockton to Parker is a bit of a drop.

Zach

02-14-2016, 08:18 AM

PG - Oscar Robertson / Joe Dumars
SG - Wince Carter / Joe Dumars
SF - Julius Erving / Carmelo Anthony
PF - Pau Gasol / Carmelo Anthony
C - Robert Parish / DeAndre Jordan

With this, you look at it and you see speed at every position. Parish is know for his foot speed and how he was one of the faster big men in the game. Parish, Gasol, Oscar, and Erving are known for great passers. Do we want to play a more defensive lineup? Sub Dumars (All-D player) for Vince, DeAndre and Robert and clog the middle. Do we wanna small ball it? Melo for Pau and DeAndre in, and you have a fantastic small ball lineup. The only thing I can hate about my team is we have no true 3 point specialist (I almost went Korver over Melo, what do you guys think?), but Vince, Melo, and other have shown to been able to knock down a 3. I don't believe some of these teams have the bigs who could keep up with Robert, DeAndre, and Pau for a full game.

Brodie

02-14-2016, 08:24 AM

Also, do not forget years everyone.

Zach

02-14-2016, 08:25 AM

Brodie

02-14-2016, 08:39 AM

Brodie, you could do a 15 team tourney, where the first round one team has a bye, and the other 14 teams have 1 v 1 matches to get to 7, so including the bye it leads to 8, then to 4, then to 2, then to 1. Have each GM create a gameplan vs each other, send to you, then you post both at once so neither teams knows.

The way I worked this out is that everyone is sending me a list of their rankings. The top 8 ranked teams will make it next. If someone doesn't send me rankings, those people are automatically out. The remaining 8 will have battles against one another based on rankings.

02-14-2016, 05:55 PM

Commie almost giving my guy away on twitter haha.

PG: Steve Nash (05-07) | Dennis Johnson (79-81)
SG: Michael Jordan (89-91)
SF: John Havlicek (71-73) | Marques Johnson (79-81)
PF: Bob Pettit (59-61) | Dolph Schayes (54-56)
C: Alonzo Mourning (98-00)

Loosely based on the Nash Suns, MJ Bulls and Curry Warriors. Such athletic wings allow me to play a fast pace and score easy fast break buckets. My starting 5 averages like 28 assists per 36 minutes and has high IQ. We'll pass the ball a ton and get open shots for elite shooters and lockdown defenders at SG and SF allow me to stop the opposite. No other team has a chance, tbh. Nash will average about 20 assist per game with this team. He makes it all work, along with Mourning's defense, but it's the elite two way guys from 2-4 that make us unstoppable.

Dolph gives me the ability to go smaller whilst still having great defense in the frontcourt. Pettit and Schayes were both elite shooters and passers who would space the floor and pass for a slashing Michael Jordan. Nash/Jordan/Havlicek/Schayes/Pettit would be impossible to defend. Dennis is there to counter Nash's defensive weaknesses. Johnson/Jordan/Havlicek gives me insane perimeter defense whilst passing on more ball handling duties to Michael and Hondo who were both elite at that as well. Marques for scoring off the bench as the 8th guy is ideal.

comahan

02-14-2016, 06:20 PM

Completion! So as Brodie said, the deal is that each of us are going to rank the other 14 teams in the draft 1-14 and send that list to someone (Brodie will specify, probably me or him). Teams with a #1 rank on a list will get 14 points, #2 will get 13, #3 12, and so on until #14 gets 1. Once all 15 lists are in, the 8 teams with the highest amount of points will be seeded in an 8 team playoff where we will do team v team votes where matchups play an important role.

He'll say when to start sending in lists. Until then, if you have any writeups or anything you want to do, go for it :)

Brodie

02-14-2016, 06:34 PM

I want everyone to just put their lineups (and write-ups) if they're so inclined with years. Once everyone has done so by say tomorrow night, I'll make a post in the selection thread with all the teams together. From there, send me your rankings. If you don't by say Wednesday night, you're out.

Kyle

02-14-2016, 06:49 PM

PG- Mark Price (92-94)
SG- Rick Barry (73-75)- Mitch Richmond (96-98)
SF- Lebron James (12-14)- Andre Igoudala (08-10)
PF- Kevin McHale (86-88)- Lebron James- Charles Oakley
C- Moses Malone (81-83)- Charles Oakley(89-91)

WMD

02-14-2016, 07:16 PM

PG - Magic Johnson (87-89)
SG - Ray Allen (00-02) / Alvin Robertson (86-88)
SF - Ron Artest (02-04) / Alex English (82-84)
PF - Dirk Nowitzki (05-07)
C - Ben Wallace (02-04) / Marcus Camby (06-08)

Brodie

02-14-2016, 07:16 PM

YEARS KYLE, YEARS ZACH. YEARS YEARS YEARS.

Ahem.

scottyboy

02-14-2016, 07:19 PM

PG: Jason Kidd (2001-2003) - Bob Cousy (1955-1957)
SG: Clyde Drexler (1987-1989) - Glenn Rice (1996-1998)
SF: Dominique Wilkins (1986-1988) - Glenn Rice
PF: Bob McAdoo (1974-1976) - WIllis Reed
C: Tim Duncan (2001-2003) - Willis Reed (1967-1969)

Can you say run and gun? Jason Kidd led a Nets team with little talent to back to back NBA finals using an unstoppable fast break offense. Now we throw two of the most athletic wingers in NBA history running along side him? C'mon now. 'Nique and Clyde running the break and catching alley-oops from Kidd is damn near unstoppable. Not to mention this trio will force their fair share of turnovers, being a premier group of perimeter defenders. Cousy's steady presence and Rice's 3 point shooting add to an absurdly talented back court and group of wings.

Oh, yeah, and there's this guy, Tim Duncan. He's pretty good himself. With his defensive prowess forcing altered shots, swatting the rest, and rebounding the ones that DO get by him, he can lead the break. Known as being an incredible passing big, he can lead all the breaks with great court vision and outlet passes. Not to mention, the half court set in which he and Kidd would work wonders off each other. With the wings driving, it'll open up plenty of chances for Timmy around the basket.

McAdoo is known as one of the best shooting bigs in the the early NBA. Granted, this isn't the biggest of feats, but his mid-range game was deadly. His athleticism fits in, and he was simply dominant in the early 70's, averaging over 30 and 12.

Finally, Willis Reed. I wanted to start him, but I feel his versatility being able to play the 4 or the 5 serves the team best. The word "toughness" is often thrown around, but they really don't come tougher than Reed. A great finisher around the rim, talented rebounder and hard nosed big who leads by example. He can spell Duncan or McAdoo and guard anyone.

I may go deeper into detail later but this is it for now with their stats and accolades from said years)

Brodie

02-14-2016, 07:46 PM

WHat year for McAdoo you lazy piece of shit

OSUGiants

02-14-2016, 08:00 PM

PG: Gary Payton ('95-'97) l Dave Bing ('68-'70)
SG: Klay Thompson ('14-'16) l Earl Monroe ('76-'78)
SF: Chris Mullin ('90-'92) l Klay Thompson
PF: Kevin Garnett ('03-'05) l Nate Thurmond ('71-'73)
C: Dikembe Mutumbo ('94-'96) l Nate Thurmond

Good luck getting past KG/Mutumbo

comahan

02-14-2016, 08:26 PM

10 Walt Frazier ('70-'72) | 13 James Harden ('13-'15)
4 Sidney Moncrief ('82-'84) | 13 James Harden ('13-'15)
33 Larry Bird ('84-'86) | 24 Bobby Jones ('77-'79)
34 Charles Barkley ('88-'90) | 24 Bobby Jones ('77-'79)
12 Dwight Howard ('09-'11) | 11 Arvydas Sabonis ('96-'98)

SF Larry Bird 1984-86
26.2 PTS, 10.1 REB, 6.7 AST, 1.8 STL, 5.7 FTA, .573 TS, .232 WS48, 8.5 BPM, 24.5 VORP
One of the greatest shooters ever, one of the greatest passers ever, etc. You know his skillset, you know how incredible he was as a player. If anyone thinks that Jordan and Kobe are the only ultra-competitive megastars, go back and watch more Bird or read more stories about him. Dude was a killer, while having unmatched work ethic, and always, ALWAYS rose to the occasion, second only to Jordan when it comes to putting a team on his back and taking over. But there was much more to him than that. Unlike Jordan, he was a team first guy who always got his teammates involved. His passing was contagious - his Celtics teams played how hoops should be played. When he was at his peak, before Jordan came along, he was almost unanimously regarded as the greatest player to ever play basketball - over Russell, over Wilt, over Kareem, over Magic. One of the greatest players to ever step onto a court, who led one of the greatest basketball dynasties ever, and did so while other teams high fived one another on the bench as he dropped 60 on them. At his apex, from 1984 to 1986 Larry Legend was absolutely untouchable.

PF Charles Barkley 1988-90
26.4 PTS, 12.0 REB, 3.7 AST, 1.6 STL 10.5 FTA, .660 TS, .257 WS48, 8.3 BPM, 27.1 VORP
Charles Barkley in his athletic prime. A frightening blend of power and finesse. I don't need him to be the grizzled leader he was for Phoenix in 93, not with Bird and Frazier leading the way. What I need is an unmatched specimen who could out-rebound damn near anyone and then thunder all the way down the court to the other end. Along with LeBron and Magic, Barkley is one of the three most unstoppable transition players in history, while also being a complete beast on the block. Before he started chucking up bad threes late in his career, Barkley was an efficiency god, shooting 59% from the field in these three years with a .660 True Shooting Percentage. That's barely below 2016 Curry as far as efficiency goes, and Barkley didn't have the benefit of being the GOAT 3P shooter. He just never missed. But if someone else missed? Didn't matter, because Chuck is probably the 2nd greatest offensive rebounder ever behind Moses. Combine his physical prowess, elite rebounding, and unique blend of skills with the abilities of Bird & Frazier and my team can play any style you want, any tempo you want. You have a team of lumbering bigs? We'll run on you. You're small? All of my stars have excellent post up games. 1988 to 1990 was the best stretch in league history in terms of talent, and Barkley was the third best player in the league behind only Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson.

PG Walt Frazier 1970-72
21.9 PTS, 6.5 REB, 6.9 AST, 7.1 FTA, .569 TS, .225 WS48
Imagine peak Tony Parker. Pick and roll maestro with a great midrange game and the ability to get to the rim and finish over or around anyone. Now make him 3 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier while maintaining his quickness but giving him more strength. That's Walt Frazier on offense. Now imagine that Parker could actually play defense - not just good defense, but all time elite defense. Walt Frazier is a top 10 perimeter defender in league history. He's not super aggressive like a Kawhi Leonard or a Gary Payton, but instead he was incredibly smart, had perfect positioning, and never let his man past him. Think of someone like Tony Allen or jimmy Butler. Now put all of this ability in someone who has the mindset of a modern day Spur, someone who is team first all the way and only cares about winning. The Red Holzman Knicks were one of the great team-based squads of all time. Frazier was their star, but he was like Duncan in that he was a selfless star. He played team ball perfectly, but took over the game when he had to, such as Game 7 of the 1970 Finals whre he scored 36 points, grabbed 7 rebounds, and tallied 19 assists to lead NYK to a title against Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West. Perfect complimentary superstar to Bird and Barkley.

C Dwight Howard 2009-11
20.5 PTS, 13.7 REB, 1.5 AST, 2.7 BLK, 10.8 FTA, .615 TS, .231 WS48, 4.9 BPM, 15.0 VORP
Only a handful of players in history have led a team to the finals with no Hall of Fame level teammates, and Dwight is one of those players. His level of dominance at his apex can't be overstated - Orlando was a top five defensive team in the NBA with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jameer Nelson playing big minutes. Dwight won DPOY all three years during this stretch, dominating the paint in a way few had before him. An elite rebounder and elite shotblocker, he was also incredibly efficient on offense. The combination of Howard and Barkley not only compliment one another well in terms of their games, but together they will destroy everyone else on the boards, particularly the offensive glass, while rarely missing a shot. The beauty of Howard's game is that he doesnt need touches on the block or a lot of FGA to score 20 and completely control the game. He does that himself by cleaning up the offensive glass and getting himself into position for easy lobs, which Bird, Barkley, Frazier, and Harden all have the vision and ability to deliver. He'll control the paint, control the glass, and clean up around the rim like few others can.

SG James Harden 2013-15
26.3 PTS, 5.1 REB, 6.3 AST, 1.8 STL, 9.8 FTA, .607 TS, .231 WS48, 6.6 BPM, 18.9 VORP
My 6th man. No one in this draft has a bench presence who can score and make plays the way that James Harden can. One of the most gifted offensive players in recent memory, he can shoot the three, juke you out of your shoes and step back for an easy midrange jumper, post on the block and face you up, or use his unparalleled first step quickness to blow past defenders and get to the rim. Only LeBron can rival his drive+dish ability in this era, and anyone who stands ready in the corner for a three will find thsmelves with a wide open shot on a consistent basis as a result. The sole creator and scorer on two 56 win Rockets teams during this stretch, the latter of which made the WCF with Harden starring in the playoffs to the tune of a .620 TS%, 7.5 BPM, and .202 WS48 as he dropped 27/6/8/2 on the Mavs, Clippers, and Warriors. His weakness is obviously his defense, but I have three all time great defenders in Frazier, Moncrief, and Jones able to cover any guard or wing. An underrated plus to having Harden - the ability to tilt the fuck out of the opposing team as he gets them all in foul trouble and picks up 10 free points per night because people can't help themselves as Harden lays down a clinic on reaching and teaching. The Beard isn't perfect, but he'll shine in this role.

SG Sidney Moncrief 1982-84
21.1 PTS, 6.4 REB, 4.4 AST, 1.5 STL, 7.7 FTA, .598 TS, .215 WS48, 5.3 BPM, 16.2 VORP
Walt Frazier is a top 10 perimeter defender in league history, Moncrief is top 5. The best perimeter defender of the 80s, he's a two time defensive player of the year, the only guard to ever win the award multiple times. But he was special on both ends of the court, not just on D. He was a very good scorer (an elite .598 TS% during this stretch on 21.1 pts), good distributor (4.4 ast), good rebounder (6.4 reb), good ball handler, etc. He was a do-it-all star whose all around game and defensive genius was overshadowed by more popular players like Bird and Magic. The 80s Bucks are overlooked, but they were probably the 4th best team in the league for most of the decade. They won 50+ games every year in this run. In 1983 Moncrief led the Bucks to a sweep over the Bird/Parish/McHale Celtics, with the Bucks being the only team in the playoffs that year to even take a game off of the Moses/Erving Sixers. In 1984 they went to the Eastern Conference Finals on the back of Moncrief before falling to eventual champions Boston. Moncrief and Frazier is a super-elite perimeter defender duo, and his presence allows for there to always be an all-time defender on the court next to Harden when the beard comes in off the bench. Similar to Jordan, Pippen, Drexler, and Payton, he does everything very well. He's GP without the bad attitude and the coach & teammate alienation, while retaining his intensity and aggressiveness. Injuries crippling him before he turned 30 is the only reason you dont hear about Sidney being a top 40 player in history, cause at his peak he was incredible. Another team-first star that will fit seamlessly as a top tier role player.

F Bobby Jones, 1977-79
13.9 PTS, 7.8 REB, 3.0 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.6 BLK, 3.7 FTA, .602 TS, .185 WS48, 5.6 BPM, 13.7 VORP
An efficient Dennis Rodman. Not the Rodman that was grabbing 18 rebounds a night, but the Rodman who came off the bench for the bad boy pistons and helped propel them to two titles by playing great defense and doing all the dirty work. Bobby Jones, who has one of the best nicknames ever in White Lightning, was an incredible defender and transition player. Insanely athletic, he could finish on the break with the best of them, usually with an awe inspiring dunk. In 77, when he came over from the ABA, he was the glue guy for a 50 win team, showing an all round excellent game as he put up 15.1 pts, 8.3 reb, 3.2 ast, 2.3 stl, and 2.0 blk while finishing 2nd in the entire league in BPM, VORP, and Win Shares per 48. In 1979 he joined the Sixers where he, Julius Erving, and Mo Cheeks started a dynasty which culminated in 83 with a title after two other finals appearances. An integral piece to great teams almost every year, he's the type of elite role player you need around players like Bird, Barkley, and Harden. Great efficiency, defense, versatility, and willingness to sacrifice glory for the team. One of the biggest impact role players ever.

C Arvydas Sabonis, 1996-98
14.7 PTS, 8.7 REB, 2.3 AST, 1.1 BLK, 4.6 FTA, .596 TS, .211 WS48, 4.8 BPM, 10.0 VORP
One of the greatest talents the center position has ever seen, but hampered by severe leg injuries before he came over to the NBA from Europe. Still, he was very effective once he finally came to Portland in 96. He had everything in his game - strength and skill in the post, a great face up game, a beautiful touch from range (34% on two 3PA/gm), efficiency, rebounding ability, good defense, and tremendous passing. He was the best big man passer of his day and one of the best passing seven footers ever. Most of all, he used his immense talents to better his team in the same way that Bill Walton did for the Blazers twenty years before him. Had the talent around him not been as combustible, perhaps there'd be another banner or two in Portland. I will be using him the same way that the '86 Celtics used Walton - as a reserve big man to come in and use his great all around skillset to link with guys like Bird and Barkley, who he compliments very well. Another selfless star with immense talent who meshes well.

scottyboy

02-14-2016, 08:28 PM

1974-1976 for McAdoo, mister rude pants

thenewfeature06

02-14-2016, 08:58 PM

PG - Isiah (84-86) - Jason Williams (02-04)
SG - George Gervin (79-81) - Adrian Dantley (81-83)
SF - James Worthy (89-91) - Adrian Dantley (81-83)
PF - Elvin Hayes (69-71) - Amare (09-11)
C - Wilt (59-61) - Amare (09-11)

theYAY

02-14-2016, 09:04 PM

PG - Chris Paul (2012-2014) / Mo Cheeks (1986-1988)
SG - Allen Iverson (2001-2003) / Rip Hamilton (2003-2005)
SF - Tracy McGrady (2002-2004)
PF - Shawn Kemp (1994-1996) / Draymond Green (2014-2016)
C - Hakeem Olajuwon (1992-1994)

write up: my team is pretty nice.

comahan

02-14-2016, 09:22 PM

When you guys use years, use the 2nd year of the season. For instance, this is the 2015-16 season. Use 2016.

DallasM

02-14-2016, 10:12 PM

So by that logic, stockton is 89-91 then.

Kyle

02-14-2016, 11:10 PM

YEARS KYLE, YEARS ZACH. YEARS YEARS YEARS.

Ahem.

You are so needy.

Brodie

02-15-2016, 12:52 AM

I need lineups from Mexican, Paul, TACKLE (years), BBD and Zach (years) still. Everyone else is fine.

If you do choose to add write-ups at all, they will be added to the mega post I'll throw in the selection thread with all teams.

Zach

02-15-2016, 09:41 AM

Oscar Robertson 62-64 (1x MVP, 3x All-NBA, 64 the year of the triple double)
Vince Carter 00-02 (2x All-NBA)
Julius Erving 73-75 (2x MVP, 3x All-ABA)
Pau Gasol 09-11 (3x All-NBA)
Robert Parish 81-83 (1x All-NBA)

Joe Dumars 89-91 (3x All-D, 2x All-NBA)
Carmelo Anthony 12-14 (2x All-NBA)
DeAndre Jordan 14-16 (1x All-NBA, 1x All-D)

Paul

02-15-2016, 01:47 PM

I'll post mine later today during lunch.

bigbluedefense

02-15-2016, 02:11 PM

I'm not ranking everyone's teams. I don't have time for that shit. Whatever Commie does for the rankings, I'm just gonna copy and paste it, and put my team on the top of the list.

comahan

02-15-2016, 03:19 PM

its ok your team wouldnt have made top 8 anyways ;)

Brodie

02-15-2016, 03:25 PM

It takes like 10 minutes, Sham. You spend more time a day whining about how much you work on Twitter.

Fernando

02-15-2016, 03:34 PM

I'll do mine by the end of the day

bigbluedefense

02-15-2016, 04:13 PM

its ok your team wouldnt have made top 8 anyways ;)

It so would tbh. I probably have the best front court tbh.

It takes like 10 minutes, Sham. You spend more time a day whining about how much you work on Twitter.

It definitely takes longer than 10 minutes. There's 15 teams, you gotta spend at least half an hour on this. That's giving 2 minutes per team roughly, which I think is fair.

comahan

02-15-2016, 05:06 PM

14, you dont rank your own team, so 28 minutes!

Kyle

02-15-2016, 05:13 PM

Yeah quit whining Sham. Just glance over every team when Corey posts them and go with your gut reaction.

TACKS

02-15-2016, 05:50 PM

edit - full write up coming. I'm stealing Paul's format.

The model for this team is the 2014 Spurs team that ran the Heat out of the gym, except way more dyanmic. Pace-and-space team with elite passing and super high bball IQ with an team leader/defensive anchor in the middle.

PG: Steph Curry [2014-16] - We all know what Steph can do. Greatest shooter of all time who has been one of/if not the most impactful offensive players to play the game. He warps the defence and stretches the floor like no other player to play this game.

SG: Penny Hardaway [1994-96] - At his peak, he was probably the best backcourt player of the 90s. Was technically a PG but was more of a combo guard but brings those PG passing skills to the SG position for me. He was a super athletic slasher with good 3pt shooter, and was a major problem for smaller guards in the post. Very good defender as well and has the size and athleticism to guard 1 through 3. Can move to PG when Curry is resting.

SF: Grant Hill [1996-98] - Was thought to be the heir to the 'best player in the league' title during the post Jordan-era. 21/9/7 over this 3 year stretch. Amazing passer/rebounder/basketball IQ for the position. He wasn't a 3pt shooter but with Steph/Manu/Sheed there was plenty of spacing and Hill had a special ability to get to and finish at the rim. Also, a very good defender who was awesome at jumping passing lanes and finishing in transition. He's the guy on my team who can consistently get to the rim own the space in the in-between game. Has the length to be a small ball 4 on small lineups.

PF: Rasheed Wallace [2000-02] - He's who we all know was super-talented and also a guy who'd be valued more in todays game. A stretch 4 who is a highly impactful defensive player who's athletic enough to defend PnR and also can stretch the floor and knock down 3's. Proved himself to be a very good post defender in the most dominant era of PF's. Was criticized for not being a more assertive offensive player during his peak but his offensive game, which was unstoppable at times, is best suited in a complementary role anyway. Can also be a stretch 5 if I go small.

C: Bill Russell [1962-63] - Best defender and best leader ever. Probably the most impactful defense player in the history of sports. His game is sometimes tough to project in the modern era but defensive game translates better to this era than any other big man with his versatility. Not a threat as a scorer but was a guy with elite IQ on the offensive end and was one of the best big man passers ever (5 apg in back when they were super stingy with assists).

---

6th Man: SG Manu Ginobili [2005-07] - The Ultimate 6th man. Sometimes I think that if you don't get Jordan in these superteam scenarios, he's kind've the perfect guy to have on your teams. Great 3pt shooter (39%), great passer, great defender, can carry the offense but also be a willing role player. Also, lowkey had one of the best postseasons ever for a 2nd option on a championship team in 2005 (per 100 poss: 34/10/7, 65TS%, +20 Net Rating)

Bench: PF/C Dave Cowens [1973-75] - Insert every adjective used to describe white players and they all apply to Cowens. Thing is Cowens did those white guy things to a level that got him an MVP and an NBA Title. Perfect as a bench player who as a high energy guy who can play strong D and reak havoc on the boards.

Bench: SF Bernard King - Was an the best scorer in the league during his peak. Unstoppable from his spot in the halfcourt and also a great player at finishing in transition. Doesn't have a specialized role but can come off the bench and just flat out get buckets.

Paul

02-15-2016, 10:23 PM

http://s30.postimg.org/uvdhyfdi9/nba.jpg

Starters

PG Kevin Johnson 90-92: Explosive and dynamic point man who can push the pace or run the half-court set. Was a 20-10 guy in his 3-yr window, and apparently a rapist. Which makes me love him even more.

SG Reggie Miller 95-97: Unfortunate facial features, but one of the most deadly shooters in NBA history. To say the rest of the team lacks in permitter shooting would be an understatement, so Reggie mid-range and 3pt game helps balance the attack. Go-to guy when a clutch basket is needed.

SF Scottie Pippen 94-96: Arguably one of the most complete players to play the game. Can take over the ball handling duties, lock down the other teams best scorer, distribute like a point, and score like a #1 option. Plus apparently he is so hung, Jordan himself envied him.

PF Dennis Rodoman 90-92: Best rebounder and defender in any era. The preverbal “glue guy” of the team. Will do all the dirty work, out hustle any player on the court and underrated as a crafty scorer when he really needs to be. Window was before his stupid dyed hair days unfortunately.

C David Robinson 94-96: Despite being a devout Christian, David is still one of the best centers to ever play the game. The anchor for this team on both sides of the floor. Create shots for himself in the post, prolific on put backs and sure thing on easy baskets from passes from slashing a KJ or Pippen, or a doubled Reggie. Along with Pippen and Rodman, they would make one of the stingiest front lines in this draft.

Bench

G: Tim Hardaway 91-93: Super Sub. Go in and get buckets with his ball handling and quickness. Efficient or not.

G/F: Eddie Jones 97-99: Same as above, minus the quickness, and more 3’s!

PF/C Bill Laimbeer 83-85: Go in, stretch the floor and fuck shit up.

DallasM

02-16-2016, 12:36 AM

so who do i submit rankings to?

Brodie

02-16-2016, 12:37 AM

Me, but wait until I post them altogether in the selection thread. As soon as Mexican does his part, I will post.

WMD

02-16-2016, 12:38 AM

Who do I submit rankings to?

scottyboy

02-16-2016, 01:42 AM

I wanna still Paul's idea. Which is weird because it doesn't involve being short or bad at driving.

PG: Jason Kidd 2001-03: Starts this off in Phoenix, where he averaged 16.9ppg 9.8 apg and 6.4 rpg. Leads to the Nets to back to back NBA finals. In these years he was either 1st or 2nd all NBA and defensive teams. He was leagues assist leader for 2 of the 3, and also won the skills challenge in 2003. Great all around player, and you know these alley-oops are a comin'

SG: Clyde "the glide" Drexler 1987-89: An athletic scorer who averaged over 27 points in the latter of his two years, and for the 3 averaged over 6 assists and 6 boards and 2.5 steals a game. He could score, defend, pass, rebound, oh, and dunk. Have this man running with J-Kidd? Child Please.

SF: Dominique Wilkins 1986-1988 OH! There's more dunking, you say? Of course there is, now we've got the human highlight film. We're talking the scoring champ in '86 and either 1st or 2nd all team NBA during these 3 years. We're talking a man averaging 30 points a game and 6 boards a game over this span. Pair him up running the wing with Clyde and J-Kidd running the break? El Nino Por Favor.

PF: Bob McAdoo 1974-76- Oh, what's this you say? The 3 time scoring champ for all 3 of these years? Weird, right? He averaged OVER 30 ppg each of these years, including 34.5 in 75. He also averaged about 13 boards a game and 2.5 blocks. A phenomenal all around player and could shoot. Fills in nicely with the starting 5.

C: Tim Duncan 2001-03 During these years, Timmy was an NBA champion once, 2 time MVP, finals MVP, and 1st team all NBA and defensive squads. What's more to say about him? He did it all, averaging over 12 boards a game, and 23 points in this span An unselfish big who averaged over 3 assists a game and over 2 blocks. He fills the stat sheet, knows how to win, and fits in literally any offense. I'll take him anchoring my D, starting the break, and being a versatile scoring threat, kthx. (He also averaged over 25 and 13 each of these 3 years in the playoffs fyi)

Bench:

Bob Cousy 1955-57 PG NBA champ and MVP in 57. League assist leaders and first team NBA all 3 years. Proven winner and great vision. Averaged over 20 ppg during this span. Perfect guy to spell Kidd and give him a breather without the offense missing a beat.

Glen Rice, SG/SF (1996-98)- Splash. Oh, what's that? Glen Rice just hit another 3. It's fitting, because he shot OVER 40% each of these 3 years (42, 47, 43). G money averaged over 20ppg during this span and compliments the other wings well and offers a shooter for the double coming on the bigs.

Willis Reed, PF/C (1968-70) Just averaging 21 and 13 over this span, winning a ring, tearing his muscle and playing in game 7, nbd. Winning finals MVP, defending the likes of Wilt Chamberlain. NO BIG DEAL. Defense. Toughness. Winning. Rebounding. Versatility. Come on now.

- editor's note: Reed's years are 1968-1970. My mistake on the prior posts.

Brodie

02-16-2016, 01:55 AM

I'm giving super Mex another hour before I just put his lineup together myself.

Fernando

02-16-2016, 02:18 AM

Sorry guys i work late and i couldn't do this at the office. I'll try to have it up within the next few minutes

Fernando

02-16-2016, 02:34 AM

PG: Russell Westbrook - 2014-2016
SG: Kyle Korver 2013-2015
SF: Kevin Durant - 2012-2014
PF: Shawn Marion - 2002-2004
C: Kareem Abdul Jabaar - 1971-1973

Bench:
G: Pistol Pete Maravich - 1976-1978
F: Peja Stojakovic 2003-2005
C: Demarcus Cousins 2014-2016

This is a team designed with a fast, push the pace mentality. A team with the ability to slash and dash or to open you up in the halfcourt with ball movement and shooting ability. Durant and Shawn Marion provide outside shooting protecting young Kareem down in the post from getting double teamed too much. Pete Maravich will lead the second unit with help from a dominant inside force and once again protecting the spacing of the floor will be one of the league's best shooters of all time in Stojakovic.

Defensively, Kareem anchors the paint as one of the league's historic shot blockers and rebounders. Shawn Marion provides elite defense and flexibility with his ability to defend three positions. Russell Westbrook is one of the league's most feared perimeter defenders with his immense energy and pressure.

This team is built to space the floor and score in bunches, while maintaining free flowing defensive range.

Brodie

02-16-2016, 02:45 AM

Teams posted. Everyone send to me in the next 48-72 hours. We'll move on from there.

Remember, rank everyone 1-14. If you don't submit, you're DQ'd.

02-16-2016, 02:53 AM

Brodie I added the bit I said the other day to my post on the last page.

Brodie

02-16-2016, 02:58 AM

Did I say you could speak

Paul

02-16-2016, 03:04 AM

I just want to retort to Scotty's comment and say that im 5'8, which makes me above average for an Asian male and I've only been in 3 accidents in my driving career.

scottyboy

02-16-2016, 03:07 AM

I just want to retort to Scotty's comment and say that im 5'8, which makes me above average for an Asian male and I've only been in 3 accidents in my driving career.

The worst accident you've been a part of was your birth.

Brodie

02-16-2016, 03:11 AM

The worst accident you've been a part of was your birth.

This is terrific.

Paul

02-16-2016, 03:25 AM

That was a damn good one.

Woot

02-16-2016, 03:33 AM

The worst accident you've been a part of was your birth.

oh my god. rekt.

OSUGiants

02-16-2016, 03:48 AM

The worst accident you've been a part of was your birth.

https://49.media.tumblr.com/8cd9b2ec99015f6c45206dc3858e9ba1/tumblr_ncvkcjCDG31sodwato1_400.gif

WMD

02-16-2016, 03:50 AM

It's less impressive when you find out he's been waiting 3 years to use that.

Also, I think the conception would be the accident and not the birth.

Brodie

02-16-2016, 03:53 AM

I have two lists! One of them is me, but still, progress.

bigbluedefense

02-16-2016, 02:57 PM

There's no coming back from that Paul.

Paul

02-16-2016, 03:03 PM

There's no coming back from that Paul.

You're just jelly it took Scotty one try to get off a blistering salvo on me, and you've been trying and failing for a year. Don't ride on his coattails.

bigbluedefense

02-16-2016, 03:11 PM

You're just jelly it took Scotty one try to get off a blistering salvo on me, and you've been trying and failing for a year. Don't ride on his coattails.

The peen jokes still hurt your soul tbh.

scottyboy

02-16-2016, 04:06 PM

I sent in my list. It was a simple task. Took me like 20 minutes. Silly geese.

bigbluedefense

02-16-2016, 04:48 PM

I sent my list in. Scotty, you had the best team.

TACKS

02-16-2016, 08:11 PM

not that it really matters now but you didn't include my player write ups corey.

Brodie

02-16-2016, 09:19 PM

I had everything already copied you piece of trash. I'm knocking you down my list.

Zach

02-17-2016, 01:07 AM

I have not been near a computer anf in Beijing on my way to the great wall. I already know everyone sees my team as trash so idk how soon i can make a list.

02-17-2016, 01:13 AM

Zach I don't think your team is trash.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 01:25 AM

Then send me your fucking list, Xavier. You too, Zach.

02-17-2016, 01:31 AM

About to start on it now!

theYAY

02-17-2016, 02:16 AM

whats this list business you speak of?

Zach

02-17-2016, 02:21 AM

sent.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 02:26 AM

whats this list business you speak of?

sLhVNtuwzQ0

comahan

02-17-2016, 02:27 AM

rank all of the teams in the draft (aside from your own team) and pm that top 14 list to brodie

DallasM

02-17-2016, 02:47 AM

Sent mine a while back.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 02:48 AM

I just need TNF and Yay now.

WMD

02-17-2016, 02:49 AM

who do i send my list to

TACKS

02-17-2016, 02:55 AM

who do i send my list to

JBond93

Brodie

02-17-2016, 06:24 PM

I have 14 of the 15 ballots, and everything pre-calculated on my home laptop, so I'll post everything tonight. What I actually plan on doing is having the seeds hidden for the top 8 teams, and thus removing the implicit bias when you vote for said teams.

thenewfeature06

02-17-2016, 06:42 PM

List has been sent

Brodie

02-17-2016, 07:19 PM

I don't have the tally in front of me (which will figure out the seeding), but the top 8 are some variation of SP, Mexican, TACKLE, Brodie, WMD, Comahan, Scottyboy and Paul.

bigbluedefense

02-17-2016, 07:22 PM

I'm hurt tbh.

Kyle

02-17-2016, 07:22 PM

Bullshit tbh.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 07:29 PM

Kyle you were actually 9th and very very close to 8th. Sham, you were...uhh, I think 14th?

bigbluedefense

02-17-2016, 07:31 PM

Everyone ranked my team low bc of the high school mob mentality on here. I actually had a pretty good team. My front court was boss.

thenewfeature06

02-17-2016, 07:31 PM

personal grudges get in the way

Brodie

02-17-2016, 07:32 PM

You have a serious problem with your frontcourt in that you have no backup bigs. Hell Allan Houston is a SG and I only threw him there to be nice.

bigbluedefense

02-17-2016, 07:37 PM

You have a serious problem with your frontcourt in that you have no backup bigs. Hell Allan Houston is a SG and I only threw him there to be nice.

Small ball. Elgin could play the 4, Webber the 5. Kobe the 3.

Or Ewing in Webber's place. Billups and Houston as 3 shooters with a small ball lineup really would be difficult to defend.

If we wanted to go big we have that with Ewing Webber Baylor up front.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 07:41 PM

The personnel you have just doesn't really work for small ball. If you had drafted Horace Grant over John Wall, your team would be A LOT better.

bigbluedefense

02-17-2016, 07:56 PM

You just don't like Kobe tbh. Ewing can easily play the 5 role in a small ball lineup. Heck I could go Ewing, Baylor, Kobe, Wall, and Houston.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 07:57 PM

Actually I don't like Chris Webber as a player.

bigbluedefense

02-17-2016, 07:58 PM

Actually I don't like Chris Webber as a player.

Im surprised by that. I thought you'd love him Bc he's a great passing big who can stretch the floor.

I really wanted kemp bad.

Brodie

02-17-2016, 08:04 PM

Yeah but he took a ton of long jumpers that he wasn't all that great at, and never learned a 3 point shot. Again, Horace Grant. Should have taken him. Tsk tsk.

bigbluedefense

02-17-2016, 08:44 PM

I don't think it's fair to criticize older players about the 3 ball. I'm sure many of them could've easily learned if it was embraced the way it is today. Grant gives me nothing that Ewing didn't already give me.

comahan

02-17-2016, 10:33 PM

I feel like your personnel doesnt particularly match the smallball mindset. I look at your roster and think that your team would be good in the half court - good iso players, good post scoring, penetrators, etc, but it lacks the type of players who thrive in transition like a small ball lineup would (aside from Wall). So with that in mind I assumed that most of your games would play out as half court battles, in which case your lack of size really does stand out.

comahan

02-17-2016, 10:39 PM

And I agree, its unfair to jump on a big man for not being a 3P shooter from ~'95-'05. Hardly any big men attempted any 3s then. I hope that people arent judging older players by modern standards when it comes to things like that - otherwise theres zero reason to draft them, and we should have limited the draftable players to recent years. It's fair to look at a group of players and dislike their spacing vs particular defenses, but holding lack of a 2010 skillset against a 1990 player shouldnt be something we're doing.

scottyboy

02-17-2016, 10:48 PM

so how does this work now? Do we pick winners and send that to brody? What if our team is in it? I forget what we said we're doing at this stage

Brodie

02-17-2016, 10:53 PM

So, I posted the final 8 in the thread there. What Commie came up with that I'll steal is to roll it like Mafia, in a sense. We'll start with matchup number 1, and I'll post their lineups against one another. We'll have a day or so (longer for this one since it's just starting) open to vote and people can change their votes/provide explanations and so forth. I suppose we'll cap the vote as first to 8...and outside people can vote. Also do not vote for your own or opponent's teams. So the first matchup...

TACKLE
The model for this team is the 2014 Spurs team that ran the Heat out of the gym, except way more dyanmic. Pace-and-space team with elite passing and super high bball IQ with an team leader/defensive anchor in the middle.

PG: Steph Curry [2014-16] - We all know what Steph can do. Greatest shooter of all time who has been one of/if not the most impactful offensive players to play the game. He warps the defence and stretches the floor like no other player to play this game.

SG: Penny Hardaway [1994-96] - At his peak, he was probably the best backcourt player of the 90s. Was technically a PG but was more of a combo guard but brings those PG passing skills to the SG position for me. He was a super athletic slasher with good 3pt shooter, and was a major problem for smaller guards in the post. Very good defender as well and has the size and athleticism to guard 1 through 3. Can move to PG when Curry is resting.

SF: Grant Hill [1996-98] - Was thought to be the heir to the 'best player in the league' title during the post Jordan-era. 21/9/7 over this 3 year stretch. Amazing passer/rebounder/basketball IQ for the position. He wasn't a 3pt shooter but with Steph/Manu/Sheed there was plenty of spacing and Hill had a special ability to get to and finish at the rim. Also, a very good defender who was awesome at jumping passing lanes and finishing in transition. He's the guy on my team who can consistently get to the rim own the space in the in-between game. Has the length to be a small ball 4 on small lineups.

PF: Rasheed Wallace [2000-02] - He's who we all know was super-talented and also a guy who'd be valued more in todays game. A stretch 4 who is a highly impactful defensive player who's athletic enough to defend PnR and also can stretch the floor and knock down 3's. Proved himself to be a very good post defender in the most dominant era of PF's. Was criticized for not being a more assertive offensive player during his peak but his offensive game, which was unstoppable at times, is best suited in a complementary role anyway. Can also be a stretch 5 if I go small.

C: Bill Russell [1962-63] - Best defender and best leader ever. Probably the most impactful defense player in the history of sports. His game is sometimes tough to project in the modern era but defensive game translates better to this era than any other big man with his versatility. Not a threat as a scorer but was a guy with elite IQ on the offensive end and was one of the best big man passers ever (5 apg in back when they were super stingy with assists).

---

6th Man: SG Manu Ginobili [2005-07] - The Ultimate 6th man. Sometimes I think that if you don't get Jordan in these superteam scenarios, he's kind've the perfect guy to have on your teams. Great 3pt shooter (39%), great passer, great defender, can carry the offense but also be a willing role player. Also, lowkey had one of the best postseasons ever for a 2nd option on a championship team in 2005 (per 100 poss: 34/10/7, 65TS%, +20 Net Rating)

Bench: PF/C Dave Cowens [1973-75] - Insert every adjective used to describe white players and they all apply to Cowens. Thing is Cowens did those white guy things to a level that got him an MVP and an NBA Title. Perfect as a bench player who as a high energy guy who can play strong D and reak havoc on the boards.

Bench: SF Bernard King - Was an the best scorer in the league during his peak. Unstoppable from his spot in the halfcourt and also a great player at finishing in transition. Doesn't have a specialized role but can come off the bench and just flat out get buckets.[

VS

Fernando

PG: Russell Westbrook - 2014-2016
SG: Kyle Korver 2013-2015
SF: Kevin Durant - 2012-2014
PF: Shawn Marion - 2002-2004
C: Kareem Abdul Jabaar - 1971-1973

Bench:
G: Pistol Pete Maravich - 1976-1978
F: Peja Stojakovic 2003-2005
C: Demarcus Cousins 2014-2016

This is a team designed with a fast, push the pace mentality. A team with the ability to slash and dash or to open you up in the halfcourt with ball movement and shooting ability. Durant and Shawn Marion provide outside shooting protecting young Kareem down in the post from getting double teamed too much. Pete Maravich will lead the second unit with help from a dominant inside force and once again protecting the spacing of the floor will be one of the league's best shooters of all time in Stojakovic.

Defensively, Kareem anchors the paint as one of the league's historic shot blockers and rebounders. Shawn Marion provides elite defense and flexibility with his ability to defend three positions. Russell Westbrook is one of the league's most feared perimeter defenders with his immense energy and pressure.

This team is built to space the floor and score in bunches, while maintaining free flowing defensive range.

We will be doing a voting process. I will post the matchup with the lineups and the first team to 8 votes will advance to the next round. Anyone reading this thread is eligible to vote. You vote for a team by simply stating "vote: team x" in bold in one of your posts, similar to mafia, and giving a short reasoning why. You can change your vote at any time, as you may have your mind changed by ongoing discussion, as talk over how the teams match up against one another is encouraged. There will be an 24 hour time limit on each matchup, and if neither team accumulates enough votes to win during the time limit, the team with the highest vote total will advance. Keep in mind, these teams are playing one another in a playoff series. Judge them based off of how they stack up against each other, not just how much talent is or isn't on their team.

02-17-2016, 11:00 PM

Corey you don't stand a chance

Brodie

02-17-2016, 11:00 PM

So anyways, to show how this works I'll go first. TACKLE and Fernando are both built very well. TACKLE has the best shooter of all time and can essentially run him off ball with young Penny being the main ball-handler (or Grant Hill can essentially be the point forward). Maybe the biggest weakness is interior scoring (especially given Sheed's laziness), but it's easy to overcome with the strengths around it.

With Mexican, he has a lot of guys who can play off ball with Westbrook and that is key. With two of the best shooters of all time, a terror at PG in Westbrook and one of the best centers inside ever, TACKLE would have a hell of a time stopping him. Yet, he has Pistol Pete and Cousins, neither of which I'm certain fit this team. The weak bench is what puts me off more than anything.

VOTE: TACKLE

Again, the first to 8 votes wins. The time limit is essentially 24 hours, but it's not crucial for this matchup since I am just now explaining it.

TACKS

02-17-2016, 11:06 PM

do we make a case for our own team vs. the other guy's or do we just sit out our round let everyone else sort it out through their vote/discussion?

comahan

02-17-2016, 11:07 PM

We will be doing a voting process. I will post the matchup with the lineups and the first team to 8 votes will advance to the next round. Anyone reading this thread is eligible to vote. You vote for a team by simply stating "vote: team x" in bold in one of your posts, similar to mafia, and giving a short reasoning why. You can change your vote at any time, as you may have your mind changed by ongoing discussion, as talk over how the teams match up against one another is encouraged. There will be an 24 hour time limit on each matchup, and if neither team accumulates enough votes to win during the time limit, the team with the highest vote total will advance. Keep in mind, these teams are playing one another in a playoff series. Judge them based off of how they stack up against each other, not just how much talent is or isn't on their team.

Rules in more detail for anyone still confused, as a few people were in discord. Now to this matchup...

comahan

02-17-2016, 11:08 PM

do we make a case for our own team vs. the other guy's or do we just sit out our round let everyone else sort it out through their vote/discussion?

yes, plead your case, tell us why you think your team would beat his in a series

OSUGiants

02-17-2016, 11:25 PM

Are you going to post the 9-15 rankings or should the 7 of us just go sit in a corner and have our own little party? I already got balloons for the party if that's the case.

https://wholewomannetwork.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/pity-party-time.jpg

Brodie

02-17-2016, 11:27 PM

OSUGiants

02-17-2016, 11:30 PM

Thanks brodie. I did better than I thought I would do, won't lie.

Now time to look over the matchup and vote

Fernando

02-17-2016, 11:32 PM

Pistol is to lead the second unit as a volume scorer. Cousins provides plenty of girth and low post skill while KAJ rests. Point to Cousins is to keep defense from eating up the shooters in the perimeter and forcing the defense to collapse into the paint when Cousins has the ball. Same for KAJ. Stojakovic provides off ball shooting from the bench

scottyboy

02-17-2016, 11:34 PM

The depth and versatility of Tackle's team and lack thereof with Fernando's is what does it for me. (And I'm a big Boogie supporter)

Vote: Tackle

comahan

02-17-2016, 11:41 PM

How would Kareem do against Russell? Fairly well, I think, but not his usual level, and most importantly, he wouldnt be drawing a double team. Would be like 04 Pistons/Lakers all over again. Shaq got his, but Big Ben being able to guard him without help allowed for the Pistons to completely shut Kobe out of the series. With almost any other defender in history, Kareem would crush them 1v1 and youd have to double him, leaving Korver/Durant open for 3 or Westbrook/Marion open to slash to the basket. That advantage is taken away here. On the other side, Kareem would be able to sag off of Russell a bit and almost play a pseudo zone under the basket - think Roy Hibbert when he wasn't a useless sack of shit. That would hurt the rim attacking ability of Hill, Penny, Manu, and King.

Defensive matchups would be a nightmare for Fernando. First there's Penny & Hill. With their size, ability to put the ball on the floor, and ability to post people up, Korver would be absolutely abused by both, meaning that Fernando woul have to put Durant and Marion on them. So Durant/Marion are on Penny/Hill and Kareem is camped out under the basket. That leaves Korver to guard... Curry? No, thats Westbook. Sheed. He'd have to guard Sheed. Kareem couldn't do it because Sheed would go out to the 3P line and either drag Kareem from the basket (making him uselss) or he'd get wide open 3s. The beauty of Sheed is that he's also an excellent post player, and would destroyer Korver. So no matter what, Korver would get picked on and there's nothing Fernando could do to stop it, because Pistol/Peja have the exact same issues.

That's not even mentioning Curry vs. Westbrook. The thing about Russ is that he's a rabid, energetic defender, but he gambles SO much. The insane speed and intensity that he plays with actually hurts him on D a lot because he overplays things and goes for big steals. Curry would eat this up. On the flipside, Curry wouldn't stand a chance on him and I imagien Tacks would hide Curry on Korver, just following him around so he doesnt have to play a ton of defense. Korver would tire Curry out a bit running off of screen after screen after screen, but thats better than allowing Russ to blow past you every possession. Instead, I imagine Penny will be on Russ while Hill guards Durant. I think Hill would do as good a job as most on Durant (though Durant would still put up 25+). Penny guards Russ and gets beaten off the dribble sometimes, but runs into Sheed and Russell in the paint. He'd still be effective, I just don't see it being done effeciently, especially with Penny's size bothering him on both PnR's (with Sheed/Russell hedging) and just 1v1.

All in all I think Kareem, Durant, and Russ all get theirs, but not efficiently enough to mask the bad defensive matchups and the huge distortion in bench talent. Having Manu and Bernard King come off the bench to emphasize the defensive mismatches even moreso than before and then having Cowens come in to do all the dirty work is so much more valuable than having Pistol Pete (wont lie, I dont like him as a player at all) and Boogie (who is a very good PF/C bench man, but would be destroyed by Russell) come in to put up 25 questionable shots in 20 combined minutes as Peja's amazing shooting is countered by the same problem that Korver faces - there being no where to hide him on D that wont be heavily exploited. A big factor is his excellent bench allowing for very very little dropoff in quality as his starters stay fresh. I dont personally believe Fernando has the same luxury.

Fernando's team is excellent, one of the best combinations of interior/perimeter talent in the draft, but I just dont think he'd be able to defend the waves and waves of scoring and shooting and passing and length that tacks will throw at him, while I think that Tackle's team will be able to slow down the heavy hitters on Fernando's team just enough. His desire for the past paced slashing and dashing would be pretty well countered by the long, ahtletic, quick atheteles that Tacks possesses in Penny/Hill/Sheed/Russell. Id say this series would probably go 6, with Tackle taking it there without needing to play a game 7 - which Russell wouldn't lose anyways.

vote: TACKLE

TACKS

02-17-2016, 11:42 PM

Just a few things.

- Korver is the weak spot on his team. Penny will be able to exploit him both off the dribble and in the post. Manu will give him problems too. If he wants to try to have Korver guard Curry, game over.

- With Russell down low, I don't need to double Kareem in the post which negates a lot of Korver's potential offensive usefulness.

- Also, because he's not a threat off the dribble, I can "hide" Curry on Korver defensively and have Penny guard Russ where I'm not really giving up that much athleticism and have a size advantage.

- I also think my bench is what really separates our teams. Pistol and Boogie although being talented individual players are both major turnover machines, especially coming off the bench where they will try to force the issue in their limited minutes. Peja can be dangerous offensively but I think he's at a pretty distinct disadvantage if he has to guard Hill or King or even Sheed.

- Inside scoring would be the weakness of my team I suppose but Penny and Hill are both high level slashers and awesome postup players for their position. So although those points in the paint may not come in tradition ways, my inside scoring is still there.

theYAY

02-17-2016, 11:59 PM

Consolataion tourny!

02-18-2016, 12:09 AM

Vote: TACKLE

Bleh. Had these teams ranked closely but main reason I'm going with TACKLE is that I was willing to partially overlook Metsox's defensive questions for the rankings but I think going against multiple high IQ/passers on the floor at the same time, those weaknesses might get exploited more than they would against any other team. Curry/Penny/Hill would be ruthless. Russell sort of neutralises his biggest or second biggest offensive weapon whereas I don't think Metsox has much of an answer for TACKLE's offensive strengths because of not so great perimeter defense.

:)

comahan

02-18-2016, 12:12 AM

This is pretty brutal, I had Tacks #1 and Fernando #3 on my list. I hate to see either of them out in round 1, but i think Fernando just ran into a bad matchup. Im totally willing to be swayed with a good argument if anyone has one though.

TACKS

02-18-2016, 02:02 AM

get your vote in you dinguses.

OSUGiants

02-18-2016, 02:14 AM

Vote TACKLE

I broke it down position by position and the starting 5 were a push for me with tackle taking PG and SG, Fernando taking SF and C, with a push at PF. Came down to bench/depth and tackle beats him there. The Westbrook/Steph matchup and the Russell/Kareem matchup would make for a fun, close game, but tackle's bench takes it.

Kyle

02-18-2016, 02:19 AM

KAJ and Durant will both be top 10 players ever when Durant retires with ridiculous peaks. No other team that's still in this has that, Fernando should at least not be getting shut out here.

Vote Fernando

Brodie

02-18-2016, 02:20 AM

Tackle currently up 5-1.

02-18-2016, 02:22 AM

Paul

02-18-2016, 02:29 AM

WMD

02-18-2016, 02:32 AM

Very tough matchup.

I vote Tackle.. but I had Fernandez ranked very high.

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 02:38 AM

Wtf man I sent my list now I gotta do matches too? Fuck that.

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 02:40 AM

Tackle was the 2nd best team according to my rankings so I go tackle.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 02:41 AM

You just have to fucking type a person's name after you see arguments you whorebag.

It's 8-1 so I guess TACKLE wins.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 02:44 AM

Paul
http://s30.postimg.org/uvdhyfdi9/nba.jpg

Starters

PG Kevin Johnson 90-92: Explosive and dynamic point man who can push the pace or run the half-court set. Was a 20-10 guy in his 3-yr window, and apparently a rapist. Which makes me love him even more.

SG Reggie Miller 95-97: Unfortunate facial features, but one of the most deadly shooters in NBA history. To say the rest of the team lacks in permitter shooting would be an understatement, so Reggie mid-range and 3pt game helps balance the attack. Go-to guy when a clutch basket is needed.

SF Scottie Pippen 94-96: Arguably one of the most complete players to play the game. Can take over the ball handling duties, lock down the other teams best scorer, distribute like a point, and score like a #1 option. Plus apparently he is so hung, Jordan himself envied him.

PF Dennis Rodoman 90-92: Best rebounder and defender in any era. The preverbal “glue guy” of the team. Will do all the dirty work, out hustle any player on the court and underrated as a crafty scorer when he really needs to be. Window was before his stupid dyed hair days unfortunately.

C David Robinson 94-96: Despite being a devout Christian, David is still one of the best centers to ever play the game. The anchor for this team on both sides of the floor. Create shots for himself in the post, prolific on put backs and sure thing on easy baskets from passes from slashing a KJ or Pippen, or a doubled Reggie. Along with Pippen and Rodman, they would make one of the stingiest front lines in this draft.

Bench

G: Tim Hardaway 91-93: Super Sub. Go in and get buckets with his ball handling and quickness. Efficient or not.

G/F: Eddie Jones 97-99: Same as above, minus the quickness, and more 3’s!

PF/C Bill Laimbeer 83-85: Go in, stretch the floor and fuck shit up.

VS

Scottyboy
PG: Jason Kidd 2001-03: Starts this off in Phoenix, where he averaged 16.9ppg 9.8 apg and 6.4 rpg. Leads to the Nets to back to back NBA finals. In these years he was either 1st or 2nd all NBA and defensive teams. He was leagues assist leader for 2 of the 3, and also won the skills challenge in 2003. Great all around player, and you know these alley-oops are a comin'

SG: Clyde "the glide" Drexler 1987-89: An athletic scorer who averaged over 27 points in the latter of his two years, and for the 3 averaged over 6 assists and 6 boards and 2.5 steals a game. He could score, defend, pass, rebound, oh, and dunk. Have this man running with J-Kidd? Child Please.

SF: Dominique Wilkins 1986-1988 OH! There's more dunking, you say? Of course there is, now we've got the human highlight film. We're talking the scoring champ in '86 and either 1st or 2nd all team NBA during these 3 years. We're talking a man averaging 30 points a game and 6 boards a game over this span. Pair him up running the wing with Clyde and J-Kidd running the break? El Nino Por Favor.

PF: Bob McAdoo 1974-76- Oh, what's this you say? The 3 time scoring champ for all 3 of these years? Weird, right? He averaged OVER 30 ppg each of these years, including 34.5 in 75. He also averaged about 13 boards a game and 2.5 blocks. A phenomenal all around player and could shoot. Fills in nicely with the starting 5.

C: Tim Duncan 2001-03 During these years, Timmy was an NBA champion once, 2 time MVP, finals MVP, and 1st team all NBA and defensive squads. What's more to say about him? He did it all, averaging over 12 boards a game, and 23 points in this span An unselfish big who averaged over 3 assists a game and over 2 blocks. He fills the stat sheet, knows how to win, and fits in literally any offense. I'll take him anchoring my D, starting the break, and being a versatile scoring threat, kthx. (He also averaged over 25 and 13 each of these 3 years in the playoffs fyi)

Bench:

Bob Cousy 1955-57 PG NBA champ and MVP in 57. League assist leaders and first team NBA all 3 years. Proven winner and great vision. Averaged over 20 ppg during this span. Perfect guy to spell Kidd and give him a breather without the offense missing a beat.

Glen Rice, SG/SF (1996-98)- Splash. Oh, what's that? Glen Rice just hit another 3. It's fitting, because he shot OVER 40% each of these 3 years (42, 47, 43). G money averaged over 20ppg during this span and compliments the other wings well and offers a shooter for the double coming on the bigs.

Willis Reed, PF/C (1968-70) Just averaging 21 and 13 over this span, winning a ring, tearing his muscle and playing in game 7, nbd. Winning finals MVP, defending the likes of Wilt Chamberlain. NO BIG DEAL. Defense. Toughness. Winning. Rebounding. Versatility. Come on now.

Kyle

02-18-2016, 02:51 AM

Vote: Paul

Paul has pretty much the best frontcourt defense that you could possibly draft and scotty has limited outside shooting.

TACKS

02-18-2016, 02:52 AM

Vote: Paul

Scotty's team would be scary in transition but they're I think they're just too redundant offensively and would have a lot of problems scoring on Paul's frontline in the half court.

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 02:53 AM

I vote Scotty. I had Scotty's team ranked as the best team, narrowly edging tackle. Cousy and Rice can spread the floor, he's fine there.

WMD

02-18-2016, 03:12 AM

Scottyboy gets my vote, he surely does.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 03:14 AM

This is challenging to me. The issue with Paul is that he has perimeter D you can beat outside of Pippen, but I'm not certain scotty has the personnel to do that. With Drexler absolutely. Dominique it's maybe a bit easier but he's still a tough match. KJ could conceivably hide on Jason Kidd but would have issues operating around him on D.

I think both of the benches are relatively average but have their positives on both sides. Rice is a great shooter but bad everywhere else, and that might be hard to cover in that lineup. Cousy might be too old school to work here, his mega skills or not. Eddie Jones is more or less the same as Glen Rice, except a better defender and not as impactful of a shooter. Hardaway exists. Laimbeer and Reed are both good backup bigs that fit into the lineups.

I think a lot comes down to Admiral vs Duncan. The thing here is that Duncan is the better player over the course of his career, but Admiral's peak here was absolutely incredible. I think Admiral could control the paint, with Rodman providing any defensive support necessary here. So, for right now, a tiny tiny edge to...

Vote: Paul

comahan

02-18-2016, 03:15 AM

Admiral vs Duncan! Awesome. I think theyd pretty much cancel one another out though, so nothing too exciting to write about there. With McAdoo, I think his one big strength would be completely negated by Rodman's defensive tenacity, and McAdoo/Duncan would also get destroyed on the glass by Rodman/Admiral. Willis Reed off of the bench is better than Bill Laimbeer, but it's not enough to counteract the rebounding difference Admiral/Rodman gives you.

On the wings, one of Drexler/Wilkins would get taken out of the game by Pippen, but the other would feast on Miller. And I think Duncan would drag Admiral away from the rim leaving the paint vacant, so whomever Miller is matched up against should feast in the paint all night as long as Duncan is hitting his jump shot, which he is pretty consistently good at doing. Off the glass, baby. On the flipside, I think Drexler would do an admirable job of trailing Miller all over the court and pick up a few steals by jumping he passing lanes, but overall I think Nique and his weak D is exploited by whichever player he's guarding. If Clyde was on Pippen, he'd play him fairly well, but Miller would be coming off of Rodman screens all day for open shots as Nique half-heartedly trails him. That's a big thing about this team btw, Rodman setting screens for Miller, those two fit perfectly for what they do on offense. Either way I think one of each of the wings will be successful in the half court against one another.

For point guard, KJ has a lightning quick first step and ability to get into the paint past almost anyone, sort of like Rose before his injuries. Kidd is lengthy enough and good enough on D to moderately contain this and filter him to Duncan in the paint. The problem would be Admiral being left open in that scenario, but I really dont think it would happen that much. On the flipside I think Kidd posts KJ up all day and has his way with him. Maybe to the point where that're forced to put Pippen on Kidd in the post, opening up Clyde or Nique. Still, the problem is that Kidd's passing won't do much in the halfcourt because as good as Clyde and Nique were at these stages of their careers, their range was poor. The offense would be cramped and a frontcourt of Admiral/Rodman/Pippen would jump all over that.

In transition though, thats where Scotty's team thrives. Get Kidd or Cousy the ball and let the athletes fly up the court. This matchup is interesting because there will be fewer of those opportunities due to Admiral and Rodman cleaning up the offensive glass - but when it DOES happen the fast break will almost 100% result in a bucket because they sacrificed their transition D to go for the rebound. Honestly, due to personnel, I think the transition game might be a wash. The reason being Paul's team will cause a LOT of misses due to their insane defense, and Admiral/Rodman will almost always grab the rebound and get it out quickly to a big time PG athlete in KJ or another great transition athlete in Pippen. Those two plus a trailing Miller and a dashing Rodman (Pistons Rodman ran the floor extremely well) might actually match Scotty's transition game due to the rebounding edge. Of course, the other way that you can create transition is by forcing turnovers, and while Kidd & Clyde are good, they arent the type of pressure defenders that continually create turnovers against top tier competition, whereas Pippen and Rodman are.

So that being said, I'm voting Paul. His team has the massive rebounding edge and defensive edge, and I think his squad negates Scotty's transition game better than any other team in this draft could. Also, his athletes would make Scotty pay for his lack of spacing, which Glen Rice could help off the bench. I might actually start Rice here and bring Nique off the bench, then have Rice try to track down Miller on D because Pippen would kill him. That would help, but I still think Paul's defense and rebounding is too much in this situation. It makes it closer though, because THE top option on his offense by far, Admiral, would have his hands full with Duncan. This would be a low scoring series, but I think Paul's team has enough offense to get by whereas I don't see it from Scotty in this particular matchup.

Vote: Paul

anyone have any comments about my thoughts on the matchup and why i might be wrong? id love to see differing opinions to make me rethink things.

02-18-2016, 03:19 AM

Again, I had Paul ranked only two places above Scotty so it's very very close.

I like that McAdoo's defensive weaknesses won't be as exploited as they would normally be because of Rodman. Outside of that though I think Scotty's slashers (+Bob) might get a bit lost because of the Pippen/Rodman/Robinson defensive trio. Although I could say the same thing about Paul's team who I don't think would have ideal inside scoring because of Rodman and Robinson coming up against Duncan's defense. Blah. Guess I'll go with Paul just because I like his perimeter offense slightly more. And scoring off the bench.

Vote: Paul

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 03:27 AM

Scotty has a big penis. Paul...well...

Vote: Scotty

Woot

02-18-2016, 03:33 AM

God i love Paul group of forwards. Admiral, Pippen and Rodman is a pretty great defensive group. KJ and Miller working their magic. I have to give the edge to Paul. Great matchup tho.

Scotty's team is built for the 80's.

Vote : Paul

TACKS

02-18-2016, 03:42 AM

Paul/Scotty, you can make an argument for why you would win to sway votes you know.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 03:45 AM

I just don't think that Paul's team could stop Kidd or my wings from getting to the basket, outside of Pippen.

I also don't see Paul's team scoring that much on my team. Pippen is incredible and a multi-faceted player, but Nique/Clyde would give him fits. It'd probably be Nique on Pippen, Kidd on Miller and CLyde on KJ, negating his quickness.

Our benches are pretty much the same which is actually pretty funny and totally negate each other.

My biggest plus, I feel, is that his ball handlers can be turnover prone and with a high octane defense, with long, athletic guards and wings can force turnovers and run the break. To those saying he'd dominate the boards, Kidd is one of the greatest rebounding PG's of all time and Nique and Clyde are pulling in about 6 boards each here, something KJ and Reggie would get crushed on.

I fully admit my team lacks spacing in the half-court set, and our biggest half court weapon is negated by his incredible defensive frontcourt. Even still, a half court PnR with Kidd and Duncan...Reggie and KJ have to be covering someone, and that someone is going to be quicker or bigger than they are. The high Bball IQ and unselfish ball movement will work to my advantage to negate any true knock down shooters.

Kidd over KJ, Clyde over Miller. Pippen over Nique, and the rest is a wash.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 03:48 AM

Paul/Scotty, you can make an argument for why you would win to sway votes you know.

Crux of my argument is while yes, my team would struggle in the half court set to score against his defense, as would his team. His scorers are negated by my athletic defense.

Commie mentioned Rodman and Admiral cleaning up on the glass, and with my wings and Kidd, I don't see offensive rebounding being that big of an issue here.

Also, for what it's worth, Willis Reed would probably get the start in this matchup to negate Rodman and Admiral on the glass, if that matters any.

TACKS

02-18-2016, 03:55 AM

Your team is a bit more appealing with Willis in the starting lineup tbh even tho he's less dynamic than McAdoo.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 03:57 AM

I actually think Willis jumping in would help offset Rodman a bit. Bleh, Scotty you're convincing me a bit.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 03:57 AM

They're different styles of players which offers some versatility. Willis would match well in this game given his defensive prowess and would then shift Duncan to working on the elbow and some high PnR situations with kidd or even one of the wings.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 04:00 AM

I actually think Willis jumping in would help offset Rodman a bit. Bleh, Scotty you're convincing me a bit.

That's my job. I love Paul's front court and his warm embrace, but I see them struggling to score on my defense. If you're living and dying on offensive rebounds, I don't care who you are, your offense will struggle. He's got two of the best rebounders ever, but Duncan, Willis, 2 freak wings and Kidd are no bums in terms of hitting the glass.

(Don't get me started on the Kidd being the nets best rebounder and out rebounding Jason Collins rants)

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 04:03 AM

Scotty has the best team. You guys are overthinking this. And I want to think you're all underestimating how good Clyde was.

Paul

02-18-2016, 04:04 AM

Yes, defense is the crux of my team, but let's not act like Admiral, Pippen, KJ and Reggie weren't elite offensive players. Not to mention the scoring coming off the bench with Hardaway and Jones. Plus Scotty's complete lack of 3pt shooting, would force him into the paint where the Admiral, Rodman, Pippen and Laimbeer will smother everything.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 04:04 AM

I covered how good I thought he was goddammit. I'm pulling my vote for Paul for the time being. It's 4-2.

OSUGiants

02-18-2016, 04:55 AM

Two very evenly matched teams. This is a series that would almost definitely go 7 games, all close games. Scotty's team could score with the best of them and do it quickly, but Paul's defense wins this one for me.

vote Paul

DallasM

02-18-2016, 05:48 AM

I think Scotty's team has too many options to get effective shots, despite Paul's strong defense. This would definitely go 7 games, but I'd side with Scotty here.

Fernando

02-18-2016, 05:59 AM

I think Paul has the (second) best starting lineup on here and I had him ranked 1. I just think his lineup has a great blend of in and out, with absolutely elite defense and rebounding. With Reggie providing shooting and spacing, I just don't see how Scotty's team could keep up.

Vote: Paul

And btw dicks, Korver was damn good defensive player last year, one of the better off the ball defenders in the league and he rarely gets bullied in the paint. Just didn't have time to get on to post a rebuttal.

comahan

02-18-2016, 06:01 AM

korver is a fine defender, but we're talking about penny hardaway or grant hill or rasheed wallace, those guys beat up on top level defenders

Zach

02-18-2016, 06:41 AM

Paul for me. That SF-C combo of Pippen, Rodman, and Admiral is just so perfect. I believe I had him #1, to be honest I can't really remember.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 11:18 AM

My last 2 cents: with Paul's front court, I know scoring would be difficult but I really see Paul's team having trouble scoring on me. Clyde and Nique are rangy, quick, agressive defenders and the post game really becomes a wash. But it is what it is. I'm not a fan of Paul's backcourt, regardless if I were playing him or not

Zach

02-18-2016, 11:29 AM

If it helps Scotty I like your bench more. I just think that SF-C is just a dream.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 11:36 AM

I get that, but all these talks with me struggling scoring on his defense are washing out the fact he'd have the same trouble. Nique (or even Kidd) are good defenders on Pippen, Clyde on KJ and then Kidd harassing Reggie on the perimeter. Not to mention reed could help on admiral if need be (which with Duncan...it wouldn't be), because it's not like Rodman would take advantage with his 7ppg.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 01:32 PM

I'll switch to Scotty to make it 7-3 Paul by my count.

Zach

02-18-2016, 01:43 PM

Can people explain why my team was bad?

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 01:48 PM

Can people explain why my team was bad?

I actually had your team top 5 I believe so don't ask me haha. I liked it.

Zach

02-18-2016, 02:00 PM

Flattery gets you every.... and Scotty knows it.

comahan

02-18-2016, 02:06 PM

Can people explain why my team was bad?

it wasnt, your team was pretty good, but small things get in the way when youre ranking it against other teams full of mega stars, and I wasn't wild about your shooting. I feel like you had too many players who did similar things and that the fit wouldnt be ideal, similar to how Pau and Noah are both super talented but cant play together in Chicago because of a clash of styles. That plus Carter being your only real threat from more than 15 feet in your starting lineup gave a few of the other teams a small edge over yours, for me.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 02:07 PM

I don't think your backcourt/SF meshes very well.

Zach

02-18-2016, 02:13 PM

it wasnt, your team was pretty good, but small things get in the way when youre ranking it against other teams full of mega stars, and I wasn't wild about your shooting. I feel like you had too many players who did similar things and that the fit wouldnt be ideal, similar to how Pau and Noah are both super talented but cant play together in Chicago because of a clash of styles. That plus Carter being your only real threat from more than 15 feet in your starting lineup gave a few of the other teams a small edge over yours, for me.

Its just weird to me that we can say that the older guards cant shoot threes, but no one mentions that the older bigs cant keep up with the new bigs. I knew along I had a 3 point problem (see my post about almost going Korver), but to me it seems like now the team that wins will mostly be a team from the past twenty years.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 02:21 PM

I should point out that your team is actually wrong, because I don't allow ABA years to count.

Paul

02-18-2016, 02:28 PM

I had OSU at the top of my list:

PG: Gary Payton ('95-'97) l Dave Bing ('68-'70)
SG: Klay Thompson ('14-'16) l Earl Monroe ('76-'78)
SF: Chris Mullin ('90-'92) l Klay Thompson
PF: Kevin Garnett ('03-'05) l Nate Thurmond ('71-'73)
C: Dikembe Mutumbo ('94-'96) l Nate Thurmond

He had one of most well rounded starting units in the draft. One that could play in any era. Really surprised he didn't make the top 8.

comahan

02-18-2016, 02:56 PM

Its just weird to me that we can say that the older guards cant shoot threes, but no one mentions that the older bigs cant keep up with the new bigs. I knew along I had a 3 point problem (see my post about almost going Korver), but to me it seems like now the team that wins will mostly be a team from the past twenty years.

Im not holding Oscar's shooting against you, in fact I said on the last page that we shouldnt be judging older players off of their lack of 3p ability. Never once have i mentioned threes, just spacing and ranged shooting, which has always been needed. Oscar was actually fine from range, but he almost always opted to post up instead. He had a fantastic post up game that he went to constantly. He wouldnt be able to do that with 3 other guys who want to be in or around the paint at all times, and that takes a big part of the Oscar appeal away for me. Of course, you could have Pau play baseline or 18 feet out, but that takes away big parts of his game as well. I just feel like you need a lot of shooting around Oscar because so much of his offensive game was based around his postups, whereas your roster is instead composed mostly of guys who occupy the same space.

Again, its not a massive deal, your team is still good, but we have to nitpick in things like this.

comahan

02-18-2016, 03:03 PM

I had OSU at the top of my list:

He had one of most well rounded starting units in the draft. One that could play in any era. Really surprised he didn't make the top 8.

Love the defense but i think that team would struggle to score. Needs an offensive playmaker/alpha. Payton and KG are good offensive players but neither of them can carry an all time offense. That would be hurt by the fact that opposing centers could almost ignore Mutombo/Thurmond entirely. Incredible defenders, terrible offensive players. The spacing and shooting is great but otherwise Klay and Mullin are useless, and Im not sure GP is the type of PG who would consistently keep them in the game. I feel like this team would be a more well rounded version of the 94 rockets where almost every single possession is going into KG or GP in the post and hoping to beat their guy or pass out for a 3, and I can't see that working consistently against the other teams in this, especially since opposing defenses could always put their best wing defender on GP since you dont need any sort of special defender for Klay/Mullin. Thats enough for some of the other teams to pass him imo.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 03:14 PM

Love the defense but i think that team would struggle to score. Needs an offensive playmaker/alpha. Payton and KG are good offensive players but neither of them can carry an all time offense. That would be hurt by the fact that opposing centers could almost ignore Mutombo/Thurmond entirely. Incredible defenders, terrible offensive players. The spacing and shooting is great but otherwise Klay and Mullin are useless, and Im not sure GP is the type of PG who would consistently keep them in the game. I feel like this team would be a more well rounded version of the 94 rockets where almost every single possession is going into KG or GP in the post and hoping to beat their guy or pass out for a 3, and I can't see that working consistently against the other teams in this, especially since opposing defenses could always put their best wing defender on GP since you dont need any sort of special defender for Klay/Mullin. Thats enough for some of the other teams to pass him imo.

Kind of like how Paul's team would struggle to score with Wilkins limiting Pippen, Miller being hounded by Kidd and Admiral being stopped by Duncan with help from Reed since Rodman isn't an offensive threat.

comahan

02-18-2016, 03:17 PM

I really dont think Nique is a good defender, Pippen wouldn't have much trouble with him. The Kidd/Miller and Duncan/Admiral ones are true enough, though.

Paul

02-18-2016, 03:19 PM

Yeah, I don't know where 'Nique being defensive stopper is coming from.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 04:04 PM

His length and athleticism is enough. Even if that didn't work, Clyde was a damn good defender. Clyde works Pippen, Nique sticks with Johnson, Kidd hounds Reggie.

I mean, either way, the matchups are almost interchangeable with the size, quickness and athleticism up top. Rodman's offensive rebounding is lessened at the very least by Willis Reed.

On the other end, KJ gets bodied by Kidd, Duncan stretches out the Admiral or Rodman to the high post. Reggie can't stay in front of 'Nique or Clyde.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 04:06 PM

Idk, I've never been a big Reggie fan regardless of matchups or playing Paul. I'm pretty meh on KJ as well. Rodman can't really create for himself. I actually didn't have Paul ranked too high because of those reasons, but that's just me.

comahan

02-18-2016, 04:09 PM

The Reed addition has me rethinking things. Still leaning Paul but i retract my vote for the time being. Will try not to take a long time looking into things.

comahan

02-18-2016, 04:14 PM

Paul can i get a very brief look at how youd matchup to his o with your d? who would guard who 1v1 and what might you do with the bench do change things as the game goes on?

Brodie

02-18-2016, 04:18 PM

6-3 for Paul right now. We still have a while before I have to close this.

Paul

02-18-2016, 04:25 PM

Paul can i get a very brief look at how youd matchup to his o with your d? who would guard who 1v1 and what might you do with the bench do change things as the game goes on?

I don't really want to think/type all that right now. If you switch to Scotty that's fine. Not going to ruin my day.

Fernando

02-18-2016, 04:40 PM

Yeah this entire thing is gonna go into 2017 at this rate.

comahan

02-18-2016, 04:57 PM

Ok so, here's what I think. On offense, Paul would have success as Miller runs Kidd ragged. Kidd would be able to keep up with him and hound him well enough, but Miller's insane endurance and constant running would tire Kidd out, especially as he eats Rodman screens over and over again. In addition, one of Pippen/KJ will end up matched up 1v1 with Dominique a lot, and would have their way with his ineffective defense and get into the paint, collapsing the D, probably Reed who would ignore Rodman immediately. And thats a big deal. Reed can sag off of Rodman and play help D in the paint against Pippen, Admiral, and KJ on the weakside, giving support to his defense that McAdoo would not have given. That and I think a KJ/Admiral PnR would be nullified due to the athleticism, length, and smarts of Duncan and Drexler.

For Scotty, both of his big men can shoot consistently well from about 17 feet out, which means that Admiral will either be giving up open jumpers or he'll be pulled away from the paint. That frees up Dominique and Drexler to drive to the basket or the slash at the rim and have Kidd/Duncan find them. I think a Kidd/Duncan PnR would abuse KJ and pull Admiral too far out, so Rodman would be switched onto Duncan. Rodman would do well at taking away KJ on the PnR but one way or another it would leave a mismatch, mostly with Kidd in the post against KJ. The most interesting 1v1 matchup here is Nique vs Pippen. While Kidd/Duncan operate on one side with Clyde on the baseline ready to slash, id imagine Nique on the weakside isolated against Pippen. Pippen would slow him wayyyy down, but that doesnt really matter much, because it would allow Drexler to match up against Miller. He would blow past Miller at every opportunity, and with Duncan/Reed pulling Admiral from the basket, the lane would be wide open for Clyde. The biggest question would be if Kidd could go thru a full series guarding Miller and still running in transition and dictating his offense. If he does, he's almost certainly be dead by the next round.

Paul has the best set of frontline defense in this draft. But in this scenario, Admiral is pulled away from the basket by two shooting big men, negating his elite shot blocking. Rodman is forced to help KJ's weak defense out on the Kidd/Duncan pick n roll. And Pippen is isolated on Dominique on the weakside. Pippen would do work on Nique, but Admiral is largely neutralized and Rodman can't make up for KJ's weaknesses. He still wins the rebounding battle, especially with Reed helping off of Rodman and opening up Dennis to grab about 8 offensive boards a game, but its lessened by Reed being in there battling opposed to McAdoo's finesse.

And that changes the transition matchup. I said it was a wash before, but I said that because I assumed Paul's elite defense would create a ton of misses and turnovers. I actually dont think so anymore. That puts the transition advantage back to Kidd and his super athlete wingmen.

It comes down to: Do I think that Pippen and/or KJ can abuse Dominique enough on offense knowing that Reed will be able to help off of Rodman without hesitation to stuff the paint? I dont think so. I dont think either can do enough to counteract the Kidd/Duncan Pick n Roll or the fact that Drexler will be matched up alone vs Miller. Drex would put up 35 ppg in this series, and I dont think that Admiral would be able to get his offensive game going with Tim Duncan playing his pitch perfect positional D.

In the end, the Reed change does enough for me. McAdoo is great on offense and good on the boards, but Rodman would shut him down, and he'd be useless otherwise. With Reed, he's a very good two way player who not only keeps the great midrange game that McAdoo brings (pulling Admiral from the paint) but also helps out on D a lot.

Vote: Scotty

Brodie

02-18-2016, 05:06 PM

Yeah this entire thing is gonna go into 2017 at this rate.

There are 5 matches left and there is a 24 hour cap. It will be over by next Tuesday at the latest.

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 05:13 PM

You guys are such nerds. I literally spent 30 seconds on my vote.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 05:18 PM

We also don't have jobs that require us to work 16 hour days.

comahan

02-18-2016, 05:20 PM

indeed, im home already and bored out of my mind with nothing to do all day, so i busy myself with hypothetical basketball geekery

Brodie

02-18-2016, 07:19 PM

6-4 Paul I think. We have a few more hours before I close it and open up me vs SP.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 07:26 PM

2 vote margin, 3 people haven't voted. People changing their minds. DRAMA PEOPLE DRAMA

TACKS

02-18-2016, 07:26 PM

I'm real tempted to change my vote to Scotty but I don't really wanna give whoever votes next all the power.

Winner has to win by 2 votes?

Brodie

02-18-2016, 07:45 PM

2 vote margin, 3 people haven't voted. People changing their minds. DRAMA PEOPLE DRAMA

Outside people can vote! I texted Rob to weigh in but he's useless.

Paul

02-18-2016, 07:46 PM

Can my girlfriend vote? She said she wants to vote for Scotty though.

TACKS

02-18-2016, 08:04 PM

I guess we can't get bantx in here to vote because you're not allowed to vote for yourself.

TACKS

02-18-2016, 08:55 PM

Sorry bantx but I'm changing my vote to Scottyboy.

I still think his team construction is somewhat flawed but it kindve works for this match up. I keep going back and forth between these two team but I do think this would be a low-scoring, grind it out series and I just feel that Scottie's team is going to be able to more consistently get points in the paint and/or get to the FT line. That and some of the match-ups commie pointed out have me slightly favoring Scotty right now (though I could easily see myself flip flopping again before it's too late).

Paul

02-18-2016, 09:10 PM

If we're still tied by the clock, just give it to Scotty. He cared enough to respond to every critique. I don't have the energy to do all that.

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 09:21 PM

Paul with the passive aggressive bounce pass.

Paul

02-18-2016, 09:25 PM

Paul with the passive aggressive bounce pass.

I thought it was totally aggressive tbh.

thenewfeature06

02-18-2016, 09:26 PM

Wtf man I sent my list now I gotta do matches too? Fuck that.

Na you don't have to

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 09:40 PM

I thought it was totally aggressive tbh.

I might change my vote to you just bc of this. I'm here for the chaos.

Paul

02-18-2016, 09:42 PM

This draft is going crazy!

Brodie

02-18-2016, 09:46 PM

It's 5-5 by the way. My method for ties is umm...well I don't have one.

Fernando

02-18-2016, 09:49 PM

Vote: chop my head off

Woot

02-18-2016, 09:50 PM

lynch bordy.

02-18-2016, 09:51 PM

Vote: chop my head off

Seconded

Brodie

02-18-2016, 10:03 PM

I know we want to get to my destroying Xavier, but I am committed to my rules.

02-18-2016, 10:05 PM

I think you missed a comma after destroying.

MJ > Fat-a-Shaq

Rob S

02-18-2016, 10:33 PM

Brodie is making me vote. I am on vacation so no write-up.

Paul is my vote.

comahan

02-18-2016, 10:37 PM

Wait, it doesnt matter, Paul hit 8 concurrent votes last page and no one noticed cause we arent keeping a running tally.

After Brodie pulled his vote, OSU, Fernando, and Zach all voted Paul to get him to 8. The votes at the time were:

Paul (8): Kyle, TACKS, Comahan, SP, Woot, OSU, Fernando, Zach

Scotty (3): BBD, WMD, DallasM

then Scotty swayed me and tacks but it was too late by that point. Paul wins.

I'll start keeping a running tally as votes come in.

scottyboy

02-18-2016, 10:44 PM

Well that is soul crushing. Good luck with the next round, Paul. I also hate you but love your tender kiss.

Paul

02-18-2016, 10:46 PM

My mom always told me I was quite the kisser.

Fernando

02-18-2016, 11:16 PM

Coincidentally, she told me the same thing.

Brodie

02-18-2016, 11:18 PM

Brodie
PG: Jerry West (1964-1966) / Fat Lever (1987-1989)
SG: Dwyane Wade (2009-2011) / Dan Majerle (1992-1994)
SF: Kawhi Leonard (2014-2016) / Andrei Kirilenko (2004-2006)
PF: Chris Bosh (2012-2014) / Andrei Kirilenko (2004-2006)
C: Shaquille O'Neal (2000-2002) / Chris Bosh (2012-2014)

Offensively: Offense primarily runs thru Shaq, obviously, as he was probably the most dominant player of all time during those 3 years. West is one of the better shooters of all time and is a great combo guard that can distribute as well as anyone to run the offense. He can also run off of Wade, who was one of the best scorers in the NBA during those three years while primarily running the offense of the Heat. As he showed, he can play off ball in a LeBron dominated offense just as he can in one run by West and thru Shaq. Kawhi can constantly move around and create pick plays for everyone else, while being a damn good three point shooter. Bosh is an elite mid-range shooter during these years here and can move around constantly as well. West, Wade and Shaq are all tremendous at getting to the line, so that is a huge part of the offense.

The bench on offense…Fat Lever ran one of the fastest offenses of all time and crashed the offensive boards as well as any guard ever has. He doesn’t have the pure shooting as some, but he was more or less Jason Kidd in smaller form during these days and can easily run the offense with West or Wade on the bench. Thunder Dan was probably one of the first guys to shoot threes at an extreme rate and was really great at doing so. That wasn’t his only game though, as he was great at moving without the ball and a well above average passer/good on the offensive glass. AK-47 is a variation on the present Draymond model on offense. Not as good of a passer, but incredibly athletic and great at getting to the line. Another guy that can move around frequently, and is more or less unguardable.

All in all, this an offense that doesn’t have a lot of guys that absolutely need the ball to succeed, and what guys have a degree of selfishness (Shaq and Wade) have proven they can operate on multiple offenses without fail.

Defensively: Everyone here is inherently able to be very versatile on defense because of the team structure. Shaq is primarily a rim defender and with the variety of centers here, that’s acceptable. Shaq’s biggest weakness, pick and roll defense, is covered by one of the strongest pick and roll guys in recent NBA history in Chris Bosh (whereas Chris’ main weakness, at the rim, is covered by Shaq). Kawhi is one of the better perimeter defenders in the last 25 years and can be glue to anyone necessary. Wade is an elite perimeter guy who takes a lot of chances (resulting in high block/steal numbers), and his chances are covered by having guys who can bail him out in the front court. West won’t fool anyone with quickness, but he was known to be great at staying with his man and would be fine knowing he’d likely be in front of the weakest perimeter guy.

The bench on defense…it can’t be understated how good AK-47 was on defense during these years. He could guard every single position, blocked a ton of shots, forced turnovers, could hawk the defensive glass, could cover the pick and roll, play the interior and much more. He would essentially be there to limit Chris Bosh at times and could absolutely cover for his pick and roll D, as well as moving around like crazy. Lever and Majerle aren’t DPOY candidates or anything, but they were both solid defenders who made all NBA defense at one time or another. Lever has the strength and quickness to guard either the 1 or 2, and Majerle could stay with most 2 or 3s without too much difficulty.

The team is versatile and capable on all ends of defense. They can cover all ends and stay with just about anyone. Compare it with an offense that can essentially play any style, and this is a very depth heavy team that can beat anyone else here.

VS

SP
PG: Steve Nash (05-07) | Dennis Johnson (79-81)
SG: Michael Jordan (89-91)
SF: John Havlicek (71-73) | Marques Johnson (79-81)
PF: Bob Pettit (59-61) | Dolph Schayes (54-56)
C: Alonzo Mourning (98-00)

Loosely based on the Nash Suns, MJ Bulls and Curry Warriors. Such athletic wings allow me to play a fast pace and score easy fast break buckets. My starting 5 averages like 28 assists per 36 minutes and has high IQ. We'll pass the ball a ton and get open shots for elite shooters and lockdown defenders at SG and SF allow me to stop the opposite. No other team has a chance, tbh. Nash will average about 20 assist per game with this team. He makes it all work, along with Mourning's defense, but it's the elite two way guys from 2-4 that make us unstoppable.

Dolph gives me the ability to go smaller whilst still having great defense in the frontcourt. Pettit and Schayes were both elite shooters and passers who would space the floor and pass for a slashing Michael Jordan. Nash/Jordan/Havlicek/Schayes/Pettit would be impossible to defend. Dennis is there to counter Nash's defensive weaknesses. Johnson/Jordan/Havlicek gives me insane perimeter defense whilst passing on more ball handling duties to Michael and Hondo who were both elite at that as well. Marques for scoring off the bench as the 8th guy is ideal.

Fernando

02-18-2016, 11:19 PM

Vote: Corey

Brodie

02-18-2016, 11:27 PM

Okay so basically this is my matchup, so I'll make my case. SP has a.rguably the best player of all time on his team, and that itself is a matchup problem. However, I think a mix of Wade, Kawhi, West and AK-47 would at the very least give him fits. Even Majerle, who has defended MJ before, could give him some troubles.

With MJ out of the way (he'd likely score 25-30 PPG regardless, just gotta force inefficiency), the rest of the team has some ups and downs. Nash is a hard guy to guard, but putting Wade on him would force him into a lot of potential bad passes/turnovers. I'd likely put West on Hondo, and I think he'd hold his own just fine. Bosh has the size advantage by a lot over the PFs, so despite the lack of rebounds, I think he could consistently force them into bad shots. Zo would probably be typical Zo, although coming face to face with Shaq/Bosh/AK-47 could present problems.

On offense, I just think I'm more versatile and difficult to handle than SP's team. Wade/West as dual ballhandlers would keep their guys on their feet, and I don't see how Nash would be able to hang with anyone my wing. Bosh's extreme size advantage over both of the PFs would leave them in knots in the mid-range. Shaq would be normal Shaq, and Zo was really never able to limit Shaq consistently. If they tried to go too fast, Fat Lever could come in and speed up the tempo quickly given his experience there (and he's a pretty good defender himself). Majerle would come in for threes and good D on the perimeter.

The x-factor is the fact that nobody on his team has an answer for AK-47 on either side of the court. He's too long for his perimeter guys, and he's too quick for his big men.

Also one last thing...Shaq would get Zo in foul trouble quickly if possible. Once that happens, SP has absolutely no one else that can guard Shaq. He has half a foot and 100+ pounds on his two PFs.

comahan

02-18-2016, 11:45 PM

This is pretty exciting. Probably the two most dominant peaks ever, with the correct years chosen, duking it out. Waiting for SP's writeup before I really go into things.

WMD

02-18-2016, 11:51 PM

I vote Coreydeur.

bigbluedefense

02-18-2016, 11:57 PM

Ew I'm voting for Corey. Ew ew ew ew ew.

comahan

02-19-2016, 12:02 AM

Brodie (3); Fernando, WMD, BBD
SP (0);

02-19-2016, 12:13 AM

A wise man once said "If Andrei Kirilenko is your x-factor, you're probably not going to succeed in life". My team has the defensive versatility to neutralise any offensive threat from this team. My starting lineup's style of play (Nash/Pettit being elite at initiating transition offense and MJ/Hondo being super athletic wings) would give me easy buckets and tire out Shaq enough that 2x DPOY Alonzo Mourning would be able to deal with him relatively comfortably. Brodie's backcourt could be handled pretty easily by me either bringing Dennis Johnson in to replace Nash (MJ and Hondo would respectively shut down Wade and Leonard) or by putting Jordan, who went for 10 triple doubles in 11 games during the 89 season, at PG. Jordan/Hondo/Marques would smother all life out of his offense from 1-3, whilst still having three absolutely elite offensive players going against smaller, less (excluding Kawhi) capable defenders. In fact, a Jordan/Hondo/Marques/Pettit/Alonzo lineup wins 4-1 if you're comparing individual players. Kawhi is great now, but including the previous two years is clearly outmatched by Marques Johnson who was a genuine star for all three and Pettit is just better than Bosh. My third option is the Death Lineup of Nash/Jordan/Havlicek/Schayes/Pettit. Ideally Shaq is forced out because he can't keep up, but keeping him in also plays into our hands. We have five elite passers, five elite shooters and (not much arguable about it) the best player of all time. This lineup would destroy any defense. Shaq, Bosh and Wade getting two points every now and then would not be able to compete with the onslaught of threes and layups that would ensue from the combination of spacing, passing and basketball IQ. Shaq can't guard the three point line and he'd be left looking like Kevin Love when attempting to defend the pick and roll. It's 2016, Byron Scott. You can't win with a combination of close twos, long twos and half court offense anymore.

comahan

02-19-2016, 12:34 AM

I like the idea of trying to play around Shaq by running him out of the building with a small lineup, but at the same time, thats a guaranteed 2 points every time down for Brodie. The one thing that stood out about your team when I ranked them was that Zo has no legit backup, which is fine if we're in 2016 NBA, but not in this where so many teams have all time offensive forces at center. Shaq fouled EVERYONE out at his peak. The opposing bigs were constantly in foul trouble against him. Zo was great, but that would happen to Zo too, and as soon as it does, youd be forced into the smaller 'death lineup'. So im just going to judge it as though thats how the series would play out. Zo frustrated on the bench with 87 fouls as you play small ball and try to tire Shaq out.

In that case, I think the advantages you create with that small lineup are countered by Shaq's automatic 2 pts every time down. Nash and MJ and Hondo would be effective, but I dont think theyd be effective enough against West, Wade, and Kawhi to justify allowing easy Shaq buckets every single trip down. I think its a viable strategy to run and try to limit Shaq's defensive impact and tire him out for offense, but still, I think Shaq would average 40 and 20 in this series.

If ever there was someone built to slow down Michael, other than Gary Payton, it's Kawhi Leonard. Fuck I want to see that matchup. Jordan would probably score 30 a game as Brodie said, but his efficiency would dip, as no one has been better than Kawhi over the last 15-20 years at forcing elite perimeter players into horrible shots time and time again. And if he doesnt work, Wade would be servicable on him.

Basically, Brodie has multiple people to throw at SP's all time player, whereas SP has no one to throw at Brodie's, and simply trying to run him off the court.

But even beyond that. Lets say that Brodie successfully slows Jordan down and SP successfully tires Shaq out and runs him out of the gym into ineffectiveness. It COULD happen. If both players are negated, I still like Brodie's team a touch more. Nash is a transcendent offensive player, but im not wild about the personnel he's with. He needs an Amare-style roll man for the half court. Pettit was a great shooter and very good passer, but hes not a roll guy, and I think Bosh's PnR defense would negate that sort of one dimensional PnR. Hondo is a very very good all around player, but Wade outdoes him at everything but defense, which Wade was excellent at as well.

I just think Brodie's team clicks better than SP's, though I like the ideas and the writeup from SP.

Vote: Brodie

02-19-2016, 12:39 AM

Just one counter to that Commie....If Brodie tries to go with Leonard on MJ, I can easily bring in Marques for Hondo to exploit the matchup of either Wade or West trying to defend a 6-8 elite offensive player.

Paul

02-19-2016, 12:57 AM

Brodie. But the MJ and Claw matchup would be awesome.

02-19-2016, 01:01 AM

:(

Final thing I'll say is Shaq is gonna be less dominant because of the zone defence rules I think. We can deny him the ball as well as doubling him without the threat of getting rained on from three because Wade, (14-15) Kawhi and Wade weren't great shooters.

Brodie

02-19-2016, 01:28 AM

02-19-2016, 01:32 AM

Kawhi wasn't a great three point shooter one of the three years. MJ wasn't a great 3 point shooter two of yours. And don't underplay Jerry West, either.

Also with Kawhi, it's not JUST this year. He was the Finals MVP for that first year. He was the DPOY for the second year. He's a top 3 player for the third year.

Which was the second year he was great? 38% on 2.8 attempts?

And yeah I love Kawhi even if it's not just this year but Marques was better over that three year span was all I was saying. It's close anyway.

Brodie

02-19-2016, 01:48 AM

I disagree but it is what it is.

comahan

02-19-2016, 01:53 AM

Brodie (5): Fernando, WMD, BBD, Comahan, Paul
SP (0):

TACKS

02-19-2016, 02:12 AM

vote:Brodeur

It's closer than the vote count would indicate. Fat Lever sounds like a made up person so we have to knock Brody for that pick and you feel like a team with prime Jordan will always find a way to win. However, I think the one argument that swayed me towards Brody's team was the idea that you have to have multiple bigs who you can throw at Shaq because he'll likely get your main defender in foul trouble (especially a guy like Zo who is physical and tries to contest every shot). Even with ball-denial through a zone style defense, if Shaq is able to get the ball on the block he'll dunk Petit and Schayes through the earth's crust.

Fernando

02-19-2016, 02:24 AM

This isn't a knock on anyone, but that whole ball denial thing isn't some new made up strategy that people came up with after Shaq's retirement. He is the most physically empowering player to ever play, and it'll be a long time before there's anyone even close to his ability. Fronting him, doubling him, zoning him, hedging him. Even through double teams he caught the ball. And believe me, as a Kings fan, once he caught the ball, it was only ending in two ways; a bucket or free throws.

Zach

02-19-2016, 02:27 AM

Brody for me.

Kyle

02-19-2016, 03:23 AM

If you try to go small and tire Shaq out he can just go some combination of Kawhi/Bosh/AK47 at the 4/5 and he'd hold his own just fine. Outside of Fat Lever most likely being the worst pick in this entire draft by far Brodie doesn't really have many weaknesses. Also Nash is obviously one of the best shooters of all time but his playmaking skills are dulled a little bit by how much MJ would have the ball so his defense stands out a little more in that case imo.

Vote: Brodie

comahan

02-19-2016, 03:25 AM

thats 8 for Brodie, he advances

Brodie

02-19-2016, 03:27 AM

WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE AND THE FAT LEVER HATE? FAT LEVER IS FUCKING GREAT. Fuck all of you.

Brodie

02-19-2016, 03:29 AM

Comahan

10 Walt Frazier ('70-'72) | 13 James Harden ('13-'15)
4 Sidney Moncrief ('82-'84) | 13 James Harden ('13-'15)
33 Larry Bird ('84-'86) | 24 Bobby Jones ('77-'79)
34 Charles Barkley ('88-'90) | 24 Bobby Jones ('77-'79)
12 Dwight Howard ('09-'11) | 11 Arvydas Sabonis ('96-'98)

SF Larry Bird 1984-86
26.2 PTS, 10.1 REB, 6.7 AST, 1.8 STL, 5.7 FTA, .573 TS, .232 WS48, 8.5 BPM, 24.5 VORP
One of the greatest shooters ever, one of the greatest passers ever, etc. You know his skillset, you know how incredible he was as a player. If anyone thinks that Jordan and Kobe are the only ultra-competitive megastars, go back and watch more Bird or read more stories about him. Dude was a killer, while having unmatched work ethic, and always, ALWAYS rose to the occasion, second only to Jordan when it comes to putting a team on his back and taking over. But there was much more to him than that. Unlike Jordan, he was a team first guy who always got his teammates involved. His passing was contagious - his Celtics teams played how hoops should be played. When he was at his peak, before Jordan came along, he was almost unanimously regarded as the greatest player to ever play basketball - over Russell, over Wilt, over Kareem, over Magic. One of the greatest players to ever step onto a court, who led one of the greatest basketball dynasties ever, and did so while other teams high fived one another on the bench as he dropped 60 on them. At his apex, from 1984 to 1986 Larry Legend was absolutely untouchable.

PF Charles Barkley 1988-90
26.4 PTS, 12.0 REB, 3.7 AST, 1.6 STL 10.5 FTA, .660 TS, .257 WS48, 8.3 BPM, 27.1 VORP
Charles Barkley in his athletic prime. A frightening blend of power and finesse. I don't need him to be the grizzled leader he was for Phoenix in 93, not with Bird and Frazier leading the way. What I need is an unmatched specimen who could out-rebound damn near anyone and then thunder all the way down the court to the other end. Along with LeBron and Magic, Barkley is one of the three most unstoppable transition players in history, while also being a complete beast on the block. Before he started chucking up bad threes late in his career, Barkley was an efficiency god, shooting 59% from the field in these three years with a .660 True Shooting Percentage. That's barely below 2016 Curry as far as efficiency goes, and Barkley didn't have the benefit of being the GOAT 3P shooter. He just never missed. But if someone else missed? Didn't matter, because Chuck is probably the 2nd greatest offensive rebounder ever behind Moses. Combine his physical prowess, elite rebounding, and unique blend of skills with the abilities of Bird & Frazier and my team can play any style you want, any tempo you want. You have a team of lumbering bigs? We'll run on you. You're small? All of my stars have excellent post up games. 1988 to 1990 was the best stretch in league history in terms of talent, and Barkley was the third best player in the league behind only Michael Jordan and Magic Johnson.

PG Walt Frazier 1970-72
21.9 PTS, 6.5 REB, 6.9 AST, 7.1 FTA, .569 TS, .225 WS48
Imagine peak Tony Parker. Pick and roll maestro with a great midrange game and the ability to get to the rim and finish over or around anyone. Now make him 3 inches taller and 20 lbs heavier while maintaining his quickness but giving him more strength. That's Walt Frazier on offense. Now imagine that Parker could actually play defense - not just good defense, but all time elite defense. Walt Frazier is a top 10 perimeter defender in league history. He's not super aggressive like a Kawhi Leonard or a Gary Payton, but instead he was incredibly smart, had perfect positioning, and never let his man past him. Think of someone like Tony Allen or jimmy Butler. Now put all of this ability in someone who has the mindset of a modern day Spur, someone who is team first all the way and only cares about winning. The Red Holzman Knicks were one of the great team-based squads of all time. Frazier was their star, but he was like Duncan in that he was a selfless star. He played team ball perfectly, but took over the game when he had to, such as Game 7 of the 1970 Finals whre he scored 36 points, grabbed 7 rebounds, and tallied 19 assists to lead NYK to a title against Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, and Jerry West. Perfect complimentary superstar to Bird and Barkley.

C Dwight Howard 2009-11
20.5 PTS, 13.7 REB, 1.5 AST, 2.7 BLK, 10.8 FTA, .615 TS, .231 WS48, 4.9 BPM, 15.0 VORP
Only a handful of players in history have led a team to the finals with no Hall of Fame level teammates, and Dwight is one of those players. His level of dominance at his apex can't be overstated - Orlando was a top five defensive team in the NBA with Rashard Lewis, Hedo Turkoglu, and Jameer Nelson playing big minutes. Dwight won DPOY all three years during this stretch, dominating the paint in a way few had before him. An elite rebounder and elite shotblocker, he was also incredibly efficient on offense. The combination of Howard and Barkley not only compliment one another well in terms of their games, but together they will destroy everyone else on the boards, particularly the offensive glass, while rarely missing a shot. The beauty of Howard's game is that he doesnt need touches on the block or a lot of FGA to score 20 and completely control the game. He does that himself by cleaning up the offensive glass and getting himself into position for easy lobs, which Bird, Barkley, Frazier, and Harden all have the vision and ability to deliver. He'll control the paint, control the glass, and clean up around the rim like few others can.

SG James Harden 2013-15
26.3 PTS, 5.1 REB, 6.3 AST, 1.8 STL, 9.8 FTA, .607 TS, .231 WS48, 6.6 BPM, 18.9 VORP
My 6th man. No one in this draft has a bench presence who can score and make plays the way that James Harden can. One of the most gifted offensive players in recent memory, he can shoot the three, juke you out of your shoes and step back for an easy midrange jumper, post on the block and face you up, or use his unparalleled first step quickness to blow past defenders and get to the rim. Only LeBron can rival his drive+dish ability in this era, and anyone who stands ready in the corner for a three will find thsmelves with a wide open shot on a consistent basis as a result. The sole creator and scorer on two 56 win Rockets teams during this stretch, the latter of which made the WCF with Harden starring in the playoffs to the tune of a .620 TS%, 7.5 BPM, and .202 WS48 as he dropped 27/6/8/2 on the Mavs, Clippers, and Warriors. His weakness is obviously his defense, but I have three all time great defenders in Frazier, Moncrief, and Jones able to cover any guard or wing. An underrated plus to having Harden - the ability to tilt the fuck out of the opposing team as he gets them all in foul trouble and picks up 10 free points per night because people can't help themselves as Harden lays down a clinic on reaching and teaching. The Beard isn't perfect, but he'll shine in this role.

SG Sidney Moncrief 1982-84
21.1 PTS, 6.4 REB, 4.4 AST, 1.5 STL, 7.7 FTA, .598 TS, .215 WS48, 5.3 BPM, 16.2 VORP
Walt Frazier is a top 10 perimeter defender in league history, Moncrief is top 5. The best perimeter defender of the 80s, he's a two time defensive player of the year, the only guard to ever win the award multiple times. But he was special on both ends of the court, not just on D. He was a very good scorer (an elite .598 TS% during this stretch on 21.1 pts), good distributor (4.4 ast), good rebounder (6.4 reb), good ball handler, etc. He was a do-it-all star whose all around game and defensive genius was overshadowed by more popular players like Bird and Magic. The 80s Bucks are overlooked, but they were probably the 4th best team in the league for most of the decade. They won 50+ games every year in this run. In 1983 Moncrief led the Bucks to a sweep over the Bird/Parish/McHale Celtics, with the Bucks being the only team in the playoffs that year to even take a game off of the Moses/Erving Sixers. In 1984 they went to the Eastern Conference Finals on the back of Moncrief before falling to eventual champions Boston. Moncrief and Frazier is a super-elite perimeter defender duo, and his presence allows for there to always be an all-time defender on the court next to Harden when the beard comes in off the bench. Similar to Jordan, Pippen, Drexler, and Payton, he does everything very well. He's GP without the bad attitude and the coach & teammate alienation, while retaining his intensity and aggressiveness. Injuries crippling him before he turned 30 is the only reason you dont hear about Sidney being a top 40 player in history, cause at his peak he was incredible. Another team-first star that will fit seamlessly as a top tier role player.

F Bobby Jones, 1977-79
13.9 PTS, 7.8 REB, 3.0 AST, 1.8 STL, 1.6 BLK, 3.7 FTA, .602 TS, .185 WS48, 5.6 BPM, 13.7 VORP
An efficient Dennis Rodman. Not the Rodman that was grabbing 18 rebounds a night, but the Rodman who came off the bench for the bad boy pistons and helped propel them to two titles by playing great defense and doing all the dirty work. Bobby Jones, who has one of the best nicknames ever in White Lightning, was an incredible defender and transition player. Insanely athletic, he could finish on the break with the best of them, usually with an awe inspiring dunk. In 77, when he came over from the ABA, he was the glue guy for a 50 win team, showing an all round excellent game as he put up 15.1 pts, 8.3 reb, 3.2 ast, 2.3 stl, and 2.0 blk while finishing 2nd in the entire league in BPM, VORP, and Win Shares per 48. In 1979 he joined the Sixers where he, Julius Erving, and Mo Cheeks started a dynasty which culminated in 83 with a title after two other finals appearances. An integral piece to great teams almost every year, he's the type of elite role player you need around players like Bird, Barkley, and Harden. Great efficiency, defense, versatility, and willingness to sacrifice glory for the team. One of the biggest impact role players ever.

C Arvydas Sabonis, 1996-98
14.7 PTS, 8.7 REB, 2.3 AST, 1.1 BLK, 4.6 FTA, .596 TS, .211 WS48, 4.8 BPM, 10.0 VORP
One of the greatest talents the center position has ever seen, but hampered by severe leg injuries before he came over to the NBA from Europe. Still, he was very effective once he finally came to Portland in 96. He had everything in his game - strength and skill in the post, a great face up game, a beautiful touch from range (34% on two 3PA/gm), efficiency, rebounding ability, good defense, and tremendous passing. He was the best big man passer of his day and one of the best passing seven footers ever. Most of all, he used his immense talents to better his team in the same way that Bill Walton did for the Blazers twenty years before him. Had the talent around him not been as combustible, perhaps there'd be another banner or two in Portland. I will be using him the same way that the '86 Celtics used Walton - as a reserve big man to come in and use his great all around skillset to link with guys like Bird and Barkley, who he compliments very well. Another selfless star with immense talent who meshes well.

VS

WMD
PG - Magic Johnson (87-89)
SG - Ray Allen (00-02) / Alvin Robertson (86-88)
SF - Ron Artest (02-04) / Alex English (82-84)
PF - Dirk Nowitzki (05-07)
C - Ben Wallace (02-04) / Marcus Camby (06-08)

comahan

02-19-2016, 03:30 AM

Sidney Moncrief gets the assignment on Magic Johnson. Moncrief is a vicious defender, similar to Dennis Johnson, who notoriously slowed Magic down in the finals and rode that to a Boston win. Moncrief has the size, quickness, and aggressiveness to get into magic and frustrate him all night. If he does manage to get past him, Dwight Howard will be waiting at the rim, as neither Ben Wallace nor Marcus Camby offer any sort of offensive presence whatsoever for me to worry about.

On the other side of the ball... the thing about Magic, especially during the 89-91 portion of his career - he was an awful defender. As much of an offensive powerhouse as he was, he played absolutely zero defense. His size allowed for LA to hide him on the weakest opposing offensive player, but WMD cant do that against me - Frazier, Moncrief, Harden, Bird, Barkley, Howard, and Sabonis will all attack he and Dirk at every given opportunity. Artest and Wallace wont have a chance to make an impact because theyll have to pay attention to their guys thanks to my overall talent, leaving Magic, Dirk, and English on islands against fantastic offensive players all series long.

Bobby Jones is going to play a lot in this series. The perfect type of defensive player to get into Dirk and agitate him, combined with the athleticism to prevent Dirk from putting it on the ground and getting past him, and the size to prevent bullying. When Dirk is on defense, I attack him with Bird, Barkley, and Dwight the same way that Houston destroyed Dirk in the playoffs last season, constantly putting him in pick and roll situations, screening him all the time, and tiring him out. Then on offense he has to match up against Bobby Jones who will be all over him all night long.

Walt Frazier will chase Ray Allen around, as will James Harden. Allen is a talented offensive player, but not someone who can abuse shaky defense like Dirk or Magic. Harden would be fine on him, and on the other end of the floor, Harden would eat Allen alive. Harden would come off the bench to take advantage of the poor perimeter defense that Magic and Allen present. Then, any time WMD subs Alvin Robertson in to stop the bleeding, I come back with Frazier whose all around game overwhelms Robertson, who is defense-only as an impact player. That would create a second black hole on his offense next to Wallace/Camby at Center. Artest is a great perimeter defender obviously, but he relies a lot on strength, while the major quality Harden possesses is first step quickness - he even blows past Tony Allen on a regular basis, who is one of the best ever at keeping guys in front of him. In fact, last year Allen said Harden was the toughest person to guard and that he still hadn't figured him out yet. Plus, if you put Artest on Harden, then Larry Bird is going to explode for 50.

If Barkley gets matched up with Dirk? Bully him on the block and score easily. If Bobby Jones is in the game? PF/C pick and roll using Jones' quality passing to take advantage of Dirk's slow feet and poor defense. Imagine WMD trying to find a place to hide Dirk when his options are to get bulldozed by Dwight, physically obliterated by Barkley, or embarrassed by Bird. Even in the instances where Bobby Jones isnt in the game harrassing Dirk on defense, his offense will be negated by me attacking his bad d.

Oh, and transition. Oh my lord thats a mismatch. Wallace, Dirk, Artest, Allen, and Magic -- none of those guys can play transition defense, while Moncrief, Harden, Jones, Barkley, and to a lesser extent Howard (young and athletic supernova that he was) are all tremendous there. Howard and Barkley would own the glass with Dirk as the only rebounding threat aside from Big Ben, and theyd get out and run all over WMDs team.

On the flipside, Magic is one of the greatest transition players ever, but he doesnt have anyone to run with. He has good trailers in Allen and Dirk, but no one to threaten the basket with a rampaging run down the wing. Artest was never that type of player, and English was more of a crafty scorer than a slasher and fast break player. It's a no contest.

I have him on the boards, I have him in transition, I have him with matchups as I exploit Magic and Dirk on D with his best defenders unable to help without me punishing him for it, I have him in ball movement (magic is his only good passer, my team is FULL of them), and I have him on defense, even with Harden and his goofy ass teeth prominently featured. Also, I have Larry fucking Bird.

WMD has a very well constructed team who fit together well and compliment one another, and it'd be perfect for a realistic league where teams only have a few threats and you can hide your bad defenders - but in this, with how many guys I have who can take advantage of that, I simply don't think he stacks up.